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I came across a Singapore youtuber, whose primary audience are kids and teenagers, advertising a gambling website and i would like to bring forth a discussion about the moral obligations of youtubers. As i am unfamiliar with the rules of this subreddit, i will not be linking the video unless i am allowed to. In this youtuber particular video, he accepted the sponsorship of a notorious gambling website called drakemall and does an entire video gambling on this website. It is notable to point out that this person is a part of JianHao's team and as JianHao's viewer demographic are largely kids and teenagers, such action brings this person's moral and ethics into question. Drakemall offers mystery box that you can buy, with real cash, in exchange for random items that you can either sell back to the website or to be delivered to you. The cost of these mystery box ranges from a few cents to a few hundred dollars; and it is very unlikely that you will profit as per any gambling games (bacarrat, slots, etc.) the odds are always in the favour of the house. Additionally, such odds in these kind of mystery box shady websites are not transparent. Many famous international youtuber such as RiceGum was condemned for accepting such sponsorship, so why is our local youtuber doing the very same act? For starters, this is highly immoral as all casinos around the world require you to be of 21 as you would have the mental capacity to be responsible for your actions, losses and finances. Drakemall disguised itself as a "for-fun" website with it's colourful background and childish product you could obtain. There is NO regulation from signing up and play; and that is highly dangerous for the impressionable teenagers or kids. I tried signing up and it was easy with a simple few clicks of the button. While it does states on the website that you need to be of 18 years old, this is way hidden on the bottom of the page and is likely done for legal protection of the website. The manifestation of impressionable teenagers are evident in the comment section, where majority of the comments are in favour of his actions. The worse part of all is that he lured his audience into watching his video by promising free giveaways and he incessantly recommends his audience to sign up for a VIP account on this website. As mentioned, this is highly unethical and unacceptable to be preying on his uninformed audiences, whom i like to remind again, are kids and teenagers. Reading through most of the comment, i came across a comment that says he had lost $60 on the website. From his nickname, he is likely an uninformed kid. **ʂყɬɧɛ Gaming _**2 weeks ago I tried wasted 60Sgd Bought vip but still get nothing good Such mystery box opening websites are, no doubt, gambling and there have been a significant amount of documentaries (search t-martn) and youtuber video exposing them. Such website runs rampage and as soon as they are reported and removed, dozens more website appears. This is the modus operandi of Drakemall who originally started their mystery box opening with CSGO skins under the name of drakemoon, iirc, and it eventually shut down due to lawsuit from Valve. The reason why these mystery box advertising are unethical and misleading is because when these website owners approach youtuber for advertising, they offers a huge sum of money and heavily skews the odds for unboxing expensive stuff for the youtuber (this is explained and exposed from the documentaries). This then gives the audience the impression that it is very easy to unbox expensive stuff and 'win big' for themselves too. But as mentioned, the odds of all the loots available in the mystery box are not transparent. This modus operandi is very evident in the aforementioned youtuber's video, whereby he easily unbox an iphone x easily, and coupled with impressionable kids, such advertisement is highly dangerous. So, i would like to question the moral obligation of this youtuber in the product they advertise. They accepted such immoral advertisement knowingly that their audience are kids. What's more, i believed that this particular youtuber lacks no offers from sponsorship given his popularity for being JianHao's member. Unfortunately, greed got better of this person. As we transition into a cashless society, teenagers and kid often see little inherent value in tangible cash and more through branded products, this allures them to start gambling at these websites. Being a youtuber and an aspiring role model to many, he should be using his position to educate his audience for the better. Edit: Some of the comments have pointed out that just dated two years ago, mystery box vending machine was ruled as a form of public lottery and all operation were quickly forced to desist. This is the very same illegal gambling product this youtuber is promoting.
Complicating the lootbox discussions with irrelevant points needs to stop. Keep that discussion simple
After the EA made that "suprise mechanics" comment the discussion around lootboxes started again and people who are supposed to be consumer advocates are still bringing up the usual irrelevant points surrounding the issue. I am not saying it is always out of malice but we should be careful. Some simple basic points should be made and should never be walked back on, gambling is : EDIT: Following text has nothing to do with legalities. I am not here for the legality of the issue. The way the laws are made and the way the world works should be proof enough that laws are not perfect. I couldn't care less about how some bald fucks in their 70s defined gambling a hundred years ago. We wouldn't be having any lootbox discussion in the first place if the law and lawmakers were doing their job correctly. Proceed with a grain of salt.
The REWARD: There is a chance at winning anything worth something.
The PRICE: Sacrificing another something with direct or indirect monetary value (you can spend money, crystals, you can give your lunch)
Before going in further: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DIGITAL PRODUCTS AND PHYSICAL ONES.
THE REWARD:
If something is worth something then it qualifies as a reward. This can be a digital item, can be a tour around the world with a yacht, can be a meeting with Justin Bieber, can be the right to exchange your 3rd day ticket to Endgame's after-credit version with a 1st day ticket. That last one is important because this is really relevant to the usual stupid "BUT KINDER SURPRISE" argument. The value here is not the movie ticket it is the privilege of being able to see it Day 1 despite buying a ticket for 2 days later. If the day1 ticket is more valuable then day2 ticket then a lootbox containing tickets with different dates will be gambling. So how do we know the items inside these lootboxes in the games are of different value. GAMES ADMIT IT THEMSELVES. An EPIC skin and a LEGENDARY skin is not the same value. A battle-scarred gun skin is different then a Factory New gun skin. Ok when you open a lootbox in CSGO you will always get a weapon skin. Therefore you are not gambling for a weapon skin you are gambling for a GOOD(valuable) weapon skin. If the cheapest skin in that lootbox is worth $0.1 and another one is worth $400 then you are gambling for the $399.99 difference between them. If that Overwatch box has a retarded 50 Credit worth kill quipp and a 3000 credit worth Genji skin then you are gambling for the difference between these items. There are also points to be made about the perceived value of these items but we don't even have to go there yet. For some reason game devs got cocky and they themselves made the quality tiers stick out. This point also ties in well with the "YOU ALWAYS GET SOMETHING" argument too. No need to go into detail about how fucking stupid that one also is.
THE PRICE:
No one is stupid enough to bring up the crystals, platinium, Cod coins, BP etc. Fortunately that argument has been resolved long ago. This part is helpful to dismantle the stupid "BUT BORDERLANDS/DIABLO HAS RNG LOOT" argument. You cannot spend money to try your luck again in loot based games. If Overwatch did NOT allow lootboxes to be bought with real money then it would not be gambling it would just be a surprise mechanic.
Stupid Arguments
Kinder Surprise:
The reward part is where the Kinder argument falls apart. The toys inside the Kinder chocolates are all worth the same. I see some people claiming that Kinder eggs are not gambling because you always get the chocolate and that money is chocolate money etc etc. You are ALL WRONG and you are not helping. Blizzard is doing something like that in China to outsmart the gambling regulations by selling the lootboxes bundled with 50 Credits. If they claim that the price is for the small amount of credits then lootboxes are no longer gambling like that? How fucking stupid is that?
You can sell the items, you don't own the items etc. :
Depending on how you look at it, this argument can be made to support the idea that it is INDEED GAMBLING as well as IT ISN'T GAMBLING. That's how bad of an argument it is. What the fuck you can do with the outcome is irrelevant to the process of gambling. Do not bring this topic up and dismantle it as swiftly as you can whenever you see it.
Cosmetic-only, game is free2play, developers need money
Financials of a business or the nature of the rewards are irrelevant to the gambling process. It is not gambling because "drinks are free in this casino"... Stupid.
Magic and Pokemon
Also gambling. No need to argue. If you want the game to have variety then make it balanced instead of forcing people to use shitty cards because they spent their life savings on stupid magic packs and these shitty ones are all the cards they have. That's not gameplay variety. Same point stands for Heartstone etc. too. IRRELEVANT.
You can buy them outright too, Steam community market exists
Another irrelevant point. The process of gambling is still there.
I WANT TO GAMBLE
This is the only relevant argument. Here is the answer. Gambling is strictly regulated and for good reason. It is not outright illegal (not universally at least) and you can go gamble legally right now. I am not calling for loot-box ban, neither should anyone. However LOOTBOXES ARE GAMBLING AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH. They need to be regulated. When you open a Rocket League crate it says 15% for the rare items. How can I be sure that IT REALLY IS 15%. Shitty crane machines in arcades are being investigated routinely why not video game lootboxes? Plus, you have to pay your taxes. By operating online casinos but not paying gambling taxes these companies EA, Activision, Valve, Blizzard, Psyonix, Ubisoft etc. are all committing crime by tax evasion. That poor legally operating casino owner at Vegas is not an idiot he is paying his taxes.
Final words, this issue can only be solved after we start focusing on the relevant parts and stay true to the nature of the topic. It is important to weed out irrelevant and malicious talking points.
(Industry/Gamer Culture) Do people still value good parenting when it comes to discussions about microtransactions?
Lately there have been a few discussions about microtransactions and gamers asking for more control/regulations. As someone who:
grew up in the 80s and 90s (I’m almost 38 now)
grew up in Southeast Asia
I’m also a parent
I do think I might not be part of that crowd that’s too rabid to see government regulations. ————— Personal opinion: I remember back then when only a handful of people lobbied for government restrictions in games — Jack Thompson (remember that guy?) and a handful of parents who felt their kids were getting addicted to gambling and starting to worship the devil (because of trading card games like Magic the Gathering and Pokémon).
Fun fact: Parents tried to sue trading card companies several times for “getting their kids addicted to gambling” but the courts dismissed all those cases. In fact, legal experts even mentioned that it was simply a case of bad parenting
I hope I’m not the only one who’s too old to remember the 90s. There might be some folks here who were already teens or adult around that time.
Nowadays, gamers themselves are the ones pushing for more government control and legislatation. It’s a little odd how the wheel has turned. Another part of me is my cultural upbringing. I grew up in the Philippines where we were exposed to microtransactions in freemium online games since the early 2000s. It meant that our parents/elders were highly aware of what video games could do to us while growing up. As a child, parents would give me a handful of quarters for the arcade or for the local fair (“color game” and “ring toss” are like kiddie forms of gambling then). The key factor here is that when I ran out of money because I was too stupid when spending, my elders would reel me back in and set me straight. It’s why I never developed a gambling vice... I learned the value of money at a young age. Also, some parts of Asia (if some Western gamers don’t know yet) it’s actually common for the younger generation to stay with their folks until their married, and even then, they might just live in the building next door or close by. We don’t just pack up our things and disappear once we turn 18, when the only time we see our folks again is during the holidays. And so parents not only play a crucial role in our development as children but even until our young adult years. Good parenting plays a key role in turning us into responsible people. Likewise, given that other parts of the world have people who aren’t as privileged or as wealthy, kids end up preferring free/cheaper games, while at the same time parents don’t just have a dozen credit cards lying around the house (the same credit cards that kids grab to buy gems/premium currency which the internet fully lays the blame on microtransactions). ————— So yes, it got me thinking: There seems to be a push among gamers to focus on government regulations because of microtransactions. However, very few people ever mention that parents should take a more active role, or be more responsible in raising and monitoring their kids.
Is this simply because people feel that parents can no longer do these things and so the government/lawmakers should step in?
Is this because of cultural differences?
As for gamers who are also parents, are you able to raise children/young gamers responsibly? Or do you feel that the government should step in?
———— Again, this is just a personal opinion: Personally, I simply believe that before the government or the rest of the industry steps in, the first responsibility in raising a child is always on me since I am a parent. If my child ends up spending too much or falls in love with microtransactions and lootboxes, that’s not the failure of the government nor the company — that is my failure as a parent because I should have taught my child how to value his time, his money, and his future. Technology may change. Games may change. Laws may change. But parenting responsibilities are a constant since time immemorial. Just my two cents. Thanks everyone. ————- Important Edit:** In case anyone mentions the definition of gambling in the United States, or legal matters... Since our specific conversation might turn to legalities, I also added several examples of lawsuits that were dismissed by US courts because the judicial system itself did not consider these TCGs/microtransactions as in violation of gambling regulations. These are from the 90s:
Just a note reminding folks who just joined the discussion in case legal proceedings/definitions are brought up. ———- Thanks to those who replied, and please continue the discussion. I tried to reply to almost everyone and even added some helpful links and studies. Since I’m from the Philippines, I’ll reply to other users tomorrow since it’s almost midnight here. Closing 1: Parenting A big thanks to everyone who joined in the discussion. This last edit will address a lot of the points that were made and tie it in to the theme of the main post. The topic is initially about the practical application of good parenting even before government regulations come into play. There's a pretty good reason why I pointed out my experiences as a kid, my upbringing, as well as parenting values. All of those points were to elicit a reaction from gamer parents out there. As you can see, in thesethreetopics -- there were but a handful of comments from actual parents themselves. Unfortunately, a vast majority did not mention being a parent or how this affects them as a parent. At the same time, you might notice that only a few respondents mentioned their own spending habits. Barely anyone mentioned their own practical examples of what their spending has been like. Many immediately went for the "microtransactions are bad" argument. My belief is that a majority of respondents are not parents themselves (or have barely been exposed to MTX), and thus it lacks that practical experience or knowledge. Ergo, the responses come from outside sources such as YouTube or internet forums (there's a reason why some of the replies you see might remind you of something you've already heard in a video). Closing 2: Microtransactions, Lootboxes, And Children There's a reason why I added bits and pieces as cues: "90s parents = video games are bad" moral conundrum, Jack Thompson and various lobbyists, previous lawsuits in the US because TCGs were thought of as "illegal gambling," growing up as a child in Southeast Asia, Asia's experience with MTX since the early-2000s, as well as how gamers have been averse to governments stepping in just to affect video games in the past. These are supposed to convey how gamers of yesteryears have viewed these issues in the past, and now how the tables have turned where gamers themselves are the ones clamoring for government regulations. It isn't necessarily an argument for or against microtransactions, and we simply look at the reasoning behind making the argument in the first place. Now, relating it to the present day, you might also know that a number of studies, including a WHO classification of "gaming disorder," and even general practical applications have been met with apprehension and doubt from gamers.
For instance, you will not get as much traction from discussions about "World of Warcraft and other MMORPGs being addictive" nowadays.
Barely any vehement comments will come with talks about grinding systems, RNG mechanics, or games where people have put in 3,000+ hours.
You probably won't even hear too much backlash about how Twitch streaming and YouTube ensure that gamers remain hooked on video games even after turning off their TVs and putting down their controllers.
You probably also enjoy the idea that people play video games for 12-16+ hours while streaming for that entertainment value, despite the inherent physical and psychological risks that this activity poses. Ever wonder why there have been streamers opening up about psychological problems that have surfaced due to streaming and providing video game entertainment?
People do not bat an eye in spite of studies about the myriad ways that video games and entertainment media keep us addicted and hooked while completely influencing our behaviors. But, when you add "lootboxes = gambling" and "lootboxes = harmful to children" in the mix, it becomes a hot topic. And these ideas have become a prevalent thought among gamers today. I believe there's a good reason for this. There's another prevailing counterpoint to the above and that's:
Many gamers don't necessarily care about "the children" (as loathsome as that sounds). Relating it to Closing 1: Parenting -- many simply see the statement of "lootboxes = gambling = harmful to children" as the most convenient way to curb the proliferation of microtransactions.
In a way, "children" have become the last line of defense for a number of gamers. The only way that lawmakers might step in to finally put a stop to microtransactions ruining games is if children are finally involved in the equation.
Video games, by their very nature, have engaged and hooked us as kids -- whether it's the 80s, 90s, or 2000s.
You could be someone who spent countless quarters in an arcade (the earliest form of "microtransactions").
You could have forgotten your obligations to your friends or family just because you want to play more video games.
You could have gotten addicted to WOW or other MMOs; or "one more turn" in Civ when you realized it's already morning.
You could know of a child whose only hobby and interactions come from Fortnite, as well as streaming being the only medium for them (or any other game that's hoooked them).
It could've led to the worsening of your eyesight, to the lack of social cues, to the rise in narcissism, to depression and anxiety, or the lack of real-life goals and ambitions.
All of these affect you because of psychological implications. However, for the longest time, gamers have espoused the need for self-moderation, or for parents taking on a more active role. And yet, strangely enough, when you put "lootboxes = gambling = bad for children" in the mix, suddenly it's about government regulations? Suddenly it's no longer about "parents being more responsible for their kids?" It's odd because on one hand, you've had all the effects that video games have had on us for decades. A majority of gamers have treated them differently. Yet "lootboxes = gambling = bad for children" exists within its own bubble, where a completely different reaction applies? Just a personal opinion, but again, I do believe this is mostly because gamers see this argument as the last line of defense just so developers will start making games the way they used to.
Well, I guess now’s as good a time as any. Daily reminder that Epic pretty much killed off the entire SEA competitive scene (and casual playerbase) by refusing to add SEA servers for no apparent reason for over a year, and forcing the entire region of players into JP servers instead. I’m pretty sure that there’s not a single competitive online game out there, outside of Japanese mmos, that forces their SEA playerbase to play in the JP region; reason primarily being that they’re literally on two different sides of the continent. Depending on where you live, the physical ping distance from SEA to JP = 65~200+ ping. Japan =/= majority of Asia. That’s like forcing SA players to play in NA because “bOtH aRe AmErIcAs.” (It’s not the servers’ fault either; AWS Singapore’s been available since 2010, and unlike literally every other game out there that merges / closes servers when there’s a population number issue, they straight up excluded SEA servers for more than a year.) The playerbase for SEA isn’t that small either, if anything else, it’s Japan that is historically known for having a way smaller PC / Esports scene as compared to the rest of the world (they focus mainly on arcade / mobile, in fact, esports prize money was illegal up till last year due to their gambling laws.) Examples of healthy SEA > JP population: Dota 2—the SEA esports scene has been there all the way since Dota 1, and high mmr games can easily be found throughout all hours of the day, while high rank games are literally non-existent in JP, and even their pub players sometimes queue SEA during night time in order to avoid 10 ~ 30 minute queues; League—JP’s scene is pretty dead, while on the other hand, there’s a post by a riot employee sometime in the last year mentioning that Vietnam has the 2nd largest playerbase outside of Korea and 1.5 times larger than NA, and that’s not even including the other countries in the SEA region; Pubg—one of the best examples, Korea and Japan got region-locked and not even a year later, JP servers got completely shut down due to a lack of playerbase. So, with SEA being known for having a large online gaming population, and also a flourishing Esports scene, what possible reason does Epic have for forcing the entire SEA region to play 80-150+ ping on JP servers for more than a year(!) before adding in SEA servers? And not even main servers at that, but sub-servers that don’t even work in Arena / Pop-up cups. We basically waited a whole year to play pub games when games released almost a decade ago launched with SEA servers (Dota 2—2011, CSGO—2012). Is it incompetency / lack of research / bad management? They themselves said during an AMA that server-cost is not a factor. There was mention of lower player pop, but shouldn’t they have launched SEA servers on launch, then merged servers into Japan IF there was a sizeable population issue? Instead of not having servers for more than a year, then mentioning about lower pop? Like no shit no servers = lower player pop? Something else I can point out is that the English SEA scrim discord numbers are pretty much equal to the JP + KR discord numbers, and that’s not including the large non-English speaking SEA population, and also the ME players queuing on SEA due to a lack of their own servers. And that is a playerbase / community grown from a region without servers for more than a year. So we’re definitely not talking about SEA being a small, small region complaining about lack of servers versus "bigger" JP. At this point, I think it’s quite possible that if SEA servers were no longer part of JP’s sub-region but a main server of it’s own (as it should be in the first place), the playerbase / competitive scene will still survive. In fact, there’ll definitely be a larger number of WC participants in available tournaments since half of SEA can’t even play on, or have more than 100+ ping on JP servers (that’s why you see all the “1 point = qualify for Asia posts.” It’s not just a matter of server pop, it’s that a whole region of Asia can’t even / or refuse to play on that ping.) If anything else, it’s likely the JP population numbers that’ll suffer, kind of like in Dota, League, OW, Pubg, etc. But is it worth screwing over the entire SEA region just so JP can get their queues? Taken from another comment, not mine
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Can't play the game in the Netherlands/ explained/ solution to the problem
Hi, my name is jacket, also known as Melon on steam. and as you probably may or may not know, Kurtzspel is not avaible for download in the Netherlands, or Belgium, when you visit the store page, it says " This item is currently unavailable in your region ". why is this, you may ask? why is kurtzspel unavaiable in the Netherlands? it has to do with the Dutch laws, more specifically, the Dutch gambling laws. when I visited the store page of kurtzspel, I saw that the product is unavaiable in my region, but when I activated a VPN, and set it to Germany, I was able to view the store page, well, why not use a VPN you ask? because you are not allowed to use a VPN, according to the SSA, you are not allowed to use VPN services on steam for whatever reason, doing so may get your account locked permanently* by browsing trough some steam discussions, and the internet, I found out some information regarding the laws, but basically, there was one piece of information that I find the most valueable: Netherlands Gaming Authority has come out with a standard to differentiate loot boxes between gaming and gambling.
Netherlands Gaming Authority studied the loot boxes and the ability to trade the items outside the game to other players.
Loot boxes where the content is not transferable are not illegal (therefore, are seen as gaming).
Loot boxes where the content is transferable are illegal (and a seen as gambling).
what this basically means is that if the game has lootboxes with items that can be sold or traded between players, it can be seen as gambling, and thus illegal, and if the game has lootboxes with lootboxes that drop items that can not be sold, or traded between gaming, it can be seen as not gambling, and thus legal. kurtzspel offers players the ability to open supplyboxes**, which can be bought with euro's or USD dollars. I assume that the items dropped from the supplybox can be sold, or traded between players, and thus it can be seen as gambling, and thus it is illegal. I am going to talk a bit about other games that offer lootboxes, but can be played. overwatch*** and league of legends are games that offer lootboxes, these lootboxes will drop skin items for champions/heroes, they do not alter gameplay, and are not neccesary to be bought to get a gameplay advantage. these skins can not be transfered or sold, and are thus legal. moving on to games made by valve,the owners of steam, we have dota2, counterstrike global offensive, and team fortress 2. a while ago, valve had to disable trading and uncrating capsules for counterstrike****, this is because the contents dropped from the capsules can be transfered between players, and sold on the steam community market, there are also online sites that offer the ability to sell counter strike skins for straight cash, with a 5-10% commision. counter strike skins have a market value, sometimes reaching values of over 1400 euros, like the AWP dragon lore*****, this could encourage players to test their luck, and start uncrating capsules, in the hope to get a expensive item. team fortress features cases and crates, which may drop cosmetics, most of the time these cosmetics will be common drops, costing only 10-20 cents, however, there are also more expensive hats called unusuals, these cosmetics are rare, as they only have a 1% drop rate, while they carry a particle effect. some unusuals cost around 10-20$, because they are either ugly hats, or have a bad effect, or both, but some more nice looking hats with a nice effect can quickly go up to 200$, up to 1 200.00$****** because counter strike skins, dota2 skins and team fortress skins/cosmetics were able to be transfered between accounts, and also sold for straight cash, the dutch gaming authority saw this as illegal, valve had to restrict trading and unboxing, in order to comply with the demands of the Dutch gaming authority. right now, valve has re-enabeled trading, but still restricts the action of uncrating capsules in counter strike. during that time, counter strike, dota, and team fortress have all been playable, the only thing being restricted being the ability to uncrate lootboxes. people in the Netherlands are unable to uncrate lootboxes in team fortress 2, counter strike, and dota2, but people in other countries can. back to kurtzspel, the main reason why kurtzspel seems to be banned in the Netherlands seem to be the issues with lootboxes, but I had a solution in mind. what if kurtzspel restricts loot boxes, just in the Netherlands. by doing so, all four parties will benefit from it. the Dutch gaming authority would allow it, because there are no lootboxes involved, so, no gambling. valve (aka steam) would benefit from this, because they take cuts from sales, and a 5% cut on steam community market sales, this would mean more money for valve. the devs would benefit from this, because they would get more players, and since kurtzspel is free, this would also mean that those Dutch players are free advertisement, by having more players, the game will get noticed, Dutch players may reccomend the game, which leads to more players from other countries, more people playing the game, more people buying stuff from the game, or the steam community market, which means more money. and the player, the player would be able to just play the game, maybe buy some in game items, or items from the steam community market, because those don't count as gambling. but what about the future? what about adults that want to open lootboxes in kurtzspel? not every Dutch player is a minor, right?. right now, with the Dutch gaming authority, it would be hard to say, but for a future solution, I could see identity verification being a solution, Dutch residents that are over the age of 18 could submit verification, and the devs could allow said Dutch resident to open lootboxes. you may be thinking, screw the Netherlands, they are a small country, will it really impact the game? yes, the Netherlands, believe it or not, also has a lot of gamers, gamers that spend their money on games, but are unable to, because they can't acces the game. -Thanks for reading, it has been a pleasure making this post. sources: https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/350544272218413826/ * https://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/844870/Advanced%20Supply%20Box%20%28Costume%29 ** https://us.shop.battle.net/en-us/product/overwatch-loot-box *** https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/12/17565720/csgo-loot-boxes-netherlands-belgium-steam-trading-marketplace **** https://blog.counter-strike.net/index.php/2018/07/20618/ **** https://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/730/AWP%20%7C%20Dragon%20Lore%20%28Field-Tested%29 ***** https://marketplace.tf/browse/tf2?squality=5 ****** https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/20/17484060/valve-csgo-dota-2-trading-blocked-netherlands https://www.reddit.com/KurtzPel/comments/cbsv0s/cant_play_in_the_netherlands/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/844870/discussions/0/1648791520854601078/?l https://steamcommunity.com/app/844870/discussions/0/1649918058735814180/?l https://steamcommunity.com/app/440/discussions/0/1743346190282006361/ https://dutchgamesassociation.nl/news/loot-boxes-netherlands-gaming-authoritys-findings/ https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/267994-the-netherlands-declares-some-loot-boxes-illegal-warns-developers-to-modify-them https://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-and-dota-2-trading-disabled-in-the-netherlands-after-loot-box-crackdown/
The value of good parenting when it comes to microtransactions?
Lately there have been a few discussions about microtransactions and gamers asking for more control/regulations. As someone who:
grew up in the 80s and 90s (I’m almost 38 now)
grew up in Southeast Asia
I’m also a parent
I do think I might not be part of that crowd that’s too rabid to see government regulations. ————— Personal opinion: I remember back then when only a handful of people lobbied for government restrictions in games — Jack Thompson (remember that guy?) and a handful of parents who felt their kids were getting addicted to gambling and starting to worship the devil (because of trading card games like Magic the Gathering and Pokémon).
Fun fact: Parents tried to sue trading card companies several times for “getting their kids addicted to gambling” but the courts dismissed all those cases. In fact, legal experts even mentioned that it was simply a case of bad parenting
I hope I’m not the only one who’s too old to remember the 90s. There might be some folks here who were already teens or adult around that time.
Nowadays, gamers themselves are the ones pushing for more government control and legislatation. It’s a little odd how the wheel has turned. Another part of me is my cultural upbringing. I grew up in the Philippines where we were exposed to microtransactions in freemium online games since the early 2000s. It meant that our parents/elders were highly aware of what video games could do to us while growing up. As a child, parents would give me a handful of quarters for the arcade or for the local fair (“color game” and “ring toss” are like kiddie forms of gambling then). The key factor here is that when I ran out of money because I was too stupid when spending, my elders would reel me back in and set me straight. It’s why I never developed a gambling vice... I learned the value of money at a young age. Also, some parts of Asia (if some Western gamers don’t know yet) it’s actually common for the younger generation to stay with their folks until their married, and even then, they might just live in the building next door or close by. We don’t just pack up our things and disappear once we turn 18, when the only time we see our folks again is during the holidays. And so parents not only play a crucial role in our development as children but even until our young adult years. Good parenting plays a key role in turning us into responsible people. Likewise, given that other parts of the world have people who aren’t as privileged or as wealthy, kids end up preferring free/cheaper games, while at the same time parents don’t just have a dozen credit cards lying around the house (the same credit cards that kids grab to buy gems/premium currency which the internet fully lays the blame on microtransactions). ————— So yes, it got me thinking: There seems to be a push among gamers to focus on government regulations because of microtransactions. However, very few people ever mention that parents should take a more active role, or be more responsible in raising and monitoring their kids.
Is this simply because people feel that parents can no longer do these things and so the government/lawmakers should step in?
Is this because of cultural differences?
As for gamers who are also parents, are you able to raise children/young gamers responsibly? Or do you feel that the government should step in?
———— Again, this is just a personal opinion: Personally, I simply believe that before the government or the rest of the industry steps in, the first responsibility in raising a child is always on me since I am a parent. If my child ends up spending too much or falls in love with microtransactions and lootboxes, that’s not the failure of the government nor the company — that is my failure as a parent because I should have taught my child how to value his time, his money, and his future. Technology may change. Games may change. Laws may change. But parenting responsibilities are a constant since time immemorial. Just my two cents. Thanks everyone. ————— For anyone who might be interested in legal proceedings in the past. Just in case any user brings up “gambling laws in the US”
———- Thanking everyone who’s replied so far. Please keep the discussion going. I tried to reply to almost every user and even add some helpful links to articles/studies. I mentioned I’m from the Philippines and it’s almost midnight here so I’ll have to rest. I’ll reply to others tomorrow. Closing 1: Parenting A big thanks to everyone who joined in the discussion. This last edit will address a lot of the points that were made and tie it in to the theme of the main post. The topic is initially about the practical application of good parenting even before government regulations come into play. There's a pretty good reason why I pointed out my experiences as a kid, my upbringing, as well as parenting values. All of those points were to elicit a reaction from gamer parents out there. As you can see, in thesethreetopics -- there were but a handful of comments from actual parents themselves. Unfortunately, a vast majority did not mention being a parent or how this affects them as a parent. At the same time, you might notice that only a few respondents mentioned their own spending habits. Barely anyone mentioned their own practical examples of what their spending has been like. Many immediately went for the "microtransactions are bad" argument. My belief is that a majority of respondents are not parents themselves (or have barely been exposed to MTX), and thus it lacks that practical experience or knowledge. Ergo, the responses come from outside sources such as YouTube or internet forums (there's a reason why some of the replies you see might remind you of something you've already heard in a video). Closing 2: Microtransactions, Lootboxes, And Children There's a reason why I added bits and pieces as cues: "90s parents = video games are bad" moral conundrum, Jack Thompson and various lobbyists, previous lawsuits in the US because TCGs were thought of as "illegal gambling," growing up as a child in Southeast Asia, Asia's experience with MTX since the early-2000s, as well as how gamers have been averse to governments stepping in just to affect video games in the past. These are supposed to convey how gamers of yesteryears have viewed these issues in the past, and now how the tables have turned where gamers themselves are the ones clamoring for government regulations. It isn't necessarily an argument for or against microtransactions, and we simply look at the reasoning behind making the argument in the first place. Now, relating it to the present day, you might also know that a number of studies, including a WHO classification of "gaming disorder," and even general practical applications have been met with apprehension and doubt from gamers.
For instance, you will not get as much traction from discussions about "World of Warcraft and other MMORPGs being addictive" nowadays.
Barely any vehement comments will come with talks about grinding systems, RNG mechanics, or games where people have put in 3,000+ hours.
You probably won't even hear too much backlash about how Twitch streaming and YouTube ensure that gamers remain hooked on video games even after turning off their TVs and putting down their controllers.
You probably also enjoy the idea that people play video games for 12-16+ hours while streaming for that entertainment value, despite the inherent physical and psychological risks that this activity poses. Ever wonder why there have been streamers opening up about psychological problems that have surfaced due to streaming and providing video game entertainment?
People do not bat an eye in spite of studies about the myriad ways that video games and entertainment media keep us addicted and hooked while completely influencing our behaviors. But, when you add "lootboxes = gambling" and "lootboxes = harmful to children" in the mix, it becomes a hot topic. And these ideas have become a prevalent thought among gamers today. I believe there's a good reason for this. There's another prevailing counterpoint to the above and that's:
Many gamers don't necessarily care about "the children" (as loathsome as that sounds). Relating it to Closing 1: Parenting -- many simply see the statement of "lootboxes = gambling = harmful to children" as the most convenient way to curb the proliferation of microtransactions.
In a way, "children" have become the last line of defense for a number of gamers. The only way that lawmakers might step in to finally put a stop to microtransactions ruining games is if children are finally involved in the equation.
Video games, by their very nature, have engaged and hooked us as kids -- whether it's the 80s, 90s, or 2000s.
You could be someone who spent countless quarters in an arcade (the earliest form of "microtransactions").
You could have forgotten your obligations to your friends or family just because you want to play more video games.
You could have gotten addicted to WOW or other MMOs; or "one more turn" in Civ when you realized it's already morning.
You could know of a child whose only hobby and interactions come from Fortnite, as well as streaming being the only medium for them (or any other game that's hoooked them).
It could've led to the worsening of your eyesight, to the lack of social cues, to the rise in narcissism, to depression and anxiety, or the lack of real-life goals and ambitions.
All of these affect you because of psychological implications. However, for the longest time, gamers have espoused the need for self-moderation, or for parents taking on a more active role. And yet, strangely enough, when you put "lootboxes = gambling = bad for children" in the mix, suddenly it's about government regulations? Suddenly it's no longer about "parents being more responsible for their kids?" It's odd because on one hand, you've had all the effects that video games have had on us for decades. A majority of gamers have treated them differently. Yet "lootboxes = gambling = bad for children" exists within its own bubble, where a completely different reaction applies? Just a personal opinion, but again, I do believe this is mostly because gamers see this argument as the last line of defense just so developers will start making games the way they used to.
We are Bryce Blum, Ryan Morrison, and Jeff Ifrah – three lawyers that work extensively in the esports industry – and we’re here to talk about gambling in esports. AUA!
TL;DR: We are three attorneys that work in the esports industry, and we’re here to answer all of your questions related to the recent scandals surrounding CSGO Diamonds and CSGO Lotto, the lawsuit against Valve, and betting in esports more generally. The past few months have seen a meaningful surge in coverage surrounding the betting side of the esports industry, particularly as it relates to CSGO. Back in April, Bloomberg published a significant investigative piece detailing the scope of the skin betting marketplace and many of the issues stemming from that industry. This article, coupled with a public scandal involving the skin betting site CSGO Diamonds, helped spur a class action suit against Valve. Two days ago, the latest scandal arose—this time involving CSGO Lotto. Here is the video for anyone who missed it. When controversies like this emerge, I get pinged on Reddit, Twitter, and via email by a wide array of people asking pretty much every question under the sun related to the situation. Ditto for Ryan (videogameattorney). I’ve had a pretty busy few months and haven’t had the change to respond to many of these, or write much on the subject matter. But this is an extremely important topic—one that we can’t allow to fall by the wayside. So Ryan and I have decided to team up on this AMA (which I guess makes it an AUA). We’re also brining in Jeff Ifrah, who is a veteran attorney with deep knowledge in iGaming, FTC regulations, and many other gambling-related legal fields. I’ll include some brief bios for each of us below. We’ll be online for the rest of today and we’re ready to answer all your questions related to betting in esports. Fire away! Bios: Bryce Blum: Bryce practices at IME Law (www.imelaw.com). He was the first attorney to build a practice focused on esports law, and has worked in every major esports title. He works with a wide array of teams, influencers, organizers, and esports-focused businesses. Particularly relevant for this AMA, Bryce is In-House Counsel at Unikrn which aims to build the most comprehensive esports sportsbook in the world and is doing so in the most responsible way possible (age verification, geotracking, competitive integrity certification, and much more). Bryce’s Twitter Reddit ID: esportslaw Ryan Morrison: Ryan practices at Morrison | Lee (www.morrisonlee.com). Ryan is best known as "VideoGameAttorney" on Twitter and Reddit, where he runs frequent AMA's in the /gamedev subreddit to assist indies and startups with their legal needs for free. Ryan also does significant esports work. His firm focuses on representing players in the industry, and works with tier one players in virtually every title. Ryan’s Twitter Reddit ID: videogameattorney Jeff Ifrah: Jeff practices at Ifrah Law (www.ifrahlaw.com). He represents many of the largest iGaming companies and industry associations in the world, at the intersection of interactive gaming and government regulation, including the online poker sites Amaya, PokerStars, and the Interactive Gaming Council. Jeff has also worked with several esports companies on wagering-related issues, including serving as outside counsel to Unikrn. In 2012, Jeff was honored as one of Gaming Intelligence Magazine’s Hot 50 Winners in the Category of Law and Regulation. He is also consistently recognized by Chambers USA in the areas of White Collar Crime and Government Investigations and Gaming and Licensing Jeff’s Twitter Reddit ID: ifrahlaw Sorry, longwinded/obligatory legal DISCLAIMER incoming: Generally, an attorney’s advice is personal and individual, and the attorney owes that client certain duties under the attorney ethics rules. The following disclaimer is meant to help clarify our relationship those posting on this AUA, and to ensure we are complying with our ethical obligations. Information exchanged in this forum does not create an attorney-client relationship. Please do not post any information that you consider to be personal or confidential. It is possible this post could be considered attorney advertising, but it is not our purpose to solicit an individual or group to become a client. We will give only GENERAL legal information in this post. Specific facts, applicable law, and other considerations will always affect every circumstance, and thus you should always seek the advice of an attorney on every specific situation before moving forward. Also, please recognize that we may be unable to answer some questions because they are too specific, or because providing an answer may conflict with the interests of our current clients or our ethical obligations. In some cases, we may have to decline to answer without providing a reason. We are all American attorneys. Prior results do not guarantee similar future outcomes. Edit: lots of repeat questions, but we're still checking in on this periodically to look for new ones and continue follow up conversations.
Sources: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/140015/nederlanders-kunnen-niet-meer-handelen-met-items-uit-lootboxes-csgo-en-dota-2.html https://kansspelautoriteit.nl/nieuws/nieuwsberichten/2018/april/artikel-0/ The dutch "kansspelauthoriteit", roughly translated to "game of chance committee", has forbidden the previous loot boxes as seen in Dota 2 and Counter strike. In response Valve sent out a gnarly reply to all dutch customers openly disagreeing with the ban(which, in my opinion, was completely just and I'm glad this shit is finally facing real repercussion) and locking all players in question's items temporarily. For Dota 2 a solution was implemented where instead of showing the usual "you can get one of these" in treasures, players would know exactly what item they would get from the current treasure. Effectively this is a loophole as you'd still be gambling with the next lootbox, but the authorities considered it OK. This has now been bugged for a considerable amount of time to the point of it becoming scandalous. For at least 3 weeks the treasures have been bugged in the Netherlands, showing, once again, the "you can get one of these" interface previously deemed illegal. Valve needs to seriously address this fast. I've currently submitted this to the authorities in the Netherlands as well - which, luckily for Valve, are usually very slow. Hopefully we just get a less "spin the wheel" mechanic in future purchases, or at very least give the old implementation back. Edit: deleted my old comments because people who stand by Valve will downvote me en mass.
Does this change make Valve hypocritical in the eyes of iBP?
One of Valve's recent statements that they have released is the following: "Using the OpenID API and making the same web calls as Steam users to run a gambling business is not allowed by our API nor our user agreements." Source: http://store.steampowered.com/news/22883/ This form of the rule has been in place for a while and I know because I am a developer myself and had read through their TOS about creating automated bots for my own purposes - which is illegal to do in accordance with Valve's rules. As we know, CSGOLounge is a website that does match betting, and although some don't characterize match betting as gambling, it is a technique of gambling and is even emphasized under the US Law. Since CSGOLounge uses bots and such to run their business, they could possibly be under the crosshair of Valve. Now Valve specifically pointed out that these gambling sites don't bring in any revenue for them which is funny because they technically and indirectly do - this is the same for CSGOLounge, making it a viable asset that Valve clearly didn't mind keeping around. When drama and attention starts stirring up around the CSGO Gambling drama, Valve decide to finally make a stand. Going back to the original iBuyPower ban post, Valve states: "Professional players, their managers, and teams’ organization staff, should under no circumstances gamble on CS:GO matches, associate with high volume CS:GO gamblers, or deliver information to others that might influence their CS:GO bets." Source: http://blog.counter-strike.net/index.php/2015/01/11261/ This statement implies that Valve clearly knew what CSGOLounge was categorized as (gambling), the very thing they are claiming they are completely against now and were. Valve made it clear they were disassociated with these gambling sites as well. It just makes them hypocritical in their statements and discredits any judgement they were allowed to make in this case. There definitely should have been a more open and public trial allowed for the iBP members and makes the severity of the punishment questionable and therefore revised. Now that all gambling sites are to cease operations, CSGOLounge SHOULD technically be part of this movement implying that no other teams can ever match-fix the same way it was done. If CSGOLounge was not a legal Valve approved website to begin with and now that Valve has emphasized that gambling businesses can't be run using their API, which was already defined in their TOS in another form; does this not set some sort of precedent for the iBP players using the services of CSGOLounge? The iBP players did a terrible thing but how does that come under jurisdiction of Valve's authority when the site that links them to the match fixing isn't even allowed to exist. Regardless, the iBP players did THROW a match which does give Valve every right to serve some punishment, but is this verdict to the iBP player's punishment justifiable with all the outlined factors in mind and for a first encounter offence? Note: I know absolutely nothing about how the law works with this sort of thing, which is why this thread is phrased as a question; can someone elaborate on this? This is simply for intellectual curiosity for myself and for anyone thinking about this.
Any other people from Belgium here pretty angry about the gambling law?
So Belgium recently changed their laws around gambling online. They made lootboxes kind of illegal and this was already pushed through on csgo, apex legends, ... But now suddenly it's also the case for Rocket League? So the keys I had already, any of the keys I get from the Rocket Pass, any decryptors (?) I get from the Rocket Pass... they're all useless now? Also the 147 crates I have already saved up and the crates I will get in the future, are all just completely worthless except maybe for trading? Sure gambling is bad and especially underage. But this can't be the best solution for all parties involved right? Just sad that all these games are having to give up their reward systems because of some government decision made by people who probably haven't touched a single game in their entire life.
Sodapoppin and other big streamers are about to get sponsored by one of the biggest online fraudster
Hey to everyone from a throwaway account (I kinda do like my life and not really interested to lose it ;))! I hope there is still time for me to warn all of you before all this shit blows up and it will no longer be possible to do anything against it. I hope I will be able to prevent all this from happening. Let´s start from the begging. There is a guy named [Vlad](https://twitter.com/vladtweeting) who is the faunder of a company named [Kickback](https://www.linkedin.com/company/kickback-gg/). At the begging his company provided a 1v1 csgo games for real money. At the time csgo skin gambling became a huge business and Vlad teamed up with FaZe Rain and FaZe Banks and they together worked on a website called csgowild. In 2016 Valve announced that all csgo gambling sites have to shut down immediately (csgowild at the time actually did shut down). Approximately a year after that Vlad created a completely rigged csgo skin opening website called SkinHub. These unreagulated casinos need something called ["provably fair system"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provably_fair). SkinHub had one to look legit to their customers, but the code strings never matched and users were being displayed [fake outcomes](https://imgur.com/a/AKEUw) (multiple proves and plus a lot of interesting things to read). This way Vlad was able to earn insane amounts and was able to abuse the power of money to get rid of their competitors offering insane deals to content creators. We are talking up to $300,000 for a single youtube video for a youtuber with 4 million subscribers. He also bought back CsgoWild and also started rigging games there (bots playing against users), which he got [exposed](http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqclek) the same week he launched the site, haha. In the past few months Valve was pretty succefull getting rid of those highly illegal gambling websites. All Vlad´s csgo skin sites are now gone, but Vlad is not. He just launched a bitcoin rulette site called [Slip](slip.gg) and many more are ready to come. Considering Vlad´s history, we can expect what is comming on us. According to my leaks from multiple sources straith from Kickback this will come very soon. Streamers are simply not able to say no to the offers they are currently receiving (again, hundreds of thousands of dollars a month). Please, try to do something against this yourself, Twitch will NOT do anything. Twitch will NOT ban gambling, nor say anything. Kickback´s [major investor](https://twitter.com/justinkan) was a major investor for Twitch. Wonder why csgo skin gambling was not allowed on Twitch after the PhantomL0rd scandal, but those case opening websites (yes, skinhub) were? Yeah... Please, again, if we will not be able to stop these sponsorships from happening, just dont play on these sites that will be heavilly advertised, your money will never be safe. Thanks, Mr.Z.
Because the Brisbane reddit diddnt appreciate my loyalty to the nanny state and needing to get this shit in line with the rest of our draconian laws: Get your input in to the inquiry into gaming microtransactions! (Specifically "loot boxes" and how they are blatant gambling aimed at children) I get microtransactions. They are fine - if they are selling a specific item for a set amount of $. Loot boxes however are straight out gambling as your paying money for a CHANCE at an item you want where the total list of items within the box and the chance of winning X item is not disclosed. Not to mention the fact that companies are using advanced algorithms to get you to buy the boxes then positively re-enforcing the purchase: https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/10/activision-patents-matchmaking-that-encourages-players-to-buy-microtransactions/ Since it's a "Grey Area" and not yet legally defined as gambling you also have the issue of adults that own "skin gambling" sites streaming themselves gambling - and winning big 95% of the time because the own the site and can rig it however they please: https://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/07/youtubers-exposed-for-promoting-their-own-csgo-gambling-website/ Please take the time to send in an e-mail to give you feedback about gambling-lootboxes and hopefully we can follow in Europe's footsteps and make them illegal. You can email your submission to the committee secretariat or to [email protected]
[Discussion] Websites are really pushing VGO skins to promote underage gambling and why isn't Valve doing anything to stop or sue VGO?
Stumbled across this on my facebook wall: https://imgur.com/a/fIPpUoJ . These companies are doing their best to promote underage gambling through virtual items and it bothers me as these skins are literally for the same guns that are used in csgo with the same models. So why cannot Valve sue them? Or is Valve planning something to hit them with? And even if Valve doesn't have the right to stop them from making fake skins that are useless in game, I'm sure the names of the weapons are illegal and their rights haven't been acquired. I am just a little out of loop with all this, can somebody help me out in this discussion? Only if OP skins hadn't gone ahead with that bs ExpressTrade feature, trading would've been a lot better than it is right now.
Social media sites, including Reddit, are being manipulated by governments and corporations. Here is the Astroturfing Information Megathread-- a compilation of links with details about who is manipulating social media.
Games of chance, which betting using these CSGO websites, is indeed illegal in most of the US. It's legalized though regulated in Delaware, New Jersey and Nevada. And even then, sites must be ... Counter-Strike player files suit against Valve over ‘illegal gambling’ surrounding CSGO. By Michael McWhertor @MikeMcWhertor. Valve accused of profiting from global gambling marketplace. CS:GO skins are back! Deposit and withdraw skins instantly with 0% fees in our website. Earn the best referral bonuses in the market with 30% commission. Tags: CSGO, eSports, Guest Contributor, ... Due to the illegality of Online gambling it would be a common presumption that even Skin Gambling and Betting would be illegal. First, decide on a legitimate CSGO betting website that you will gamble in. You can sign up for more than one site if you wish. Gambling with them is as easy as registering, depositing your items, and selecting your favorite color on the roulette wheel or pulling the arm of the slot machine. Is CSGO gambling illegal? This will entirely depend on where in the world you are playing. There are different laws in different countries, so make sure your country allows gambling legally. The legality of gambling is, therefore, totally dependent on the gambling laws and legal gambling age of the country. ... Thus, the case that was originally filed in November 2016 and claimed that Valve knowingly allowed, supported, facilitated and/or sponsored illegal gambling on the outcome of CS:GO matches and the ... Games of chance, which betting using these CSGO websites, is indeed illegal in most of the US. It's legalized though regulated in Delaware, New Jersey and Nevada. And even then, sites must be ... Like Total Maps gambling, CS:GO handicap gambling is expressed in numbers ending with a .5 decimal. Map Advantage (-1.5), Full Match. Pressing the button on the desired team on this market means you are gambling on that particular CS:GO team to win the game 2-0 if it is a best-of-three match, 3-0, 3-1 if it is a best-of-three match. CS:GO’s popularity over the last several years has birthed an industry of independent ‘skin gambling’ operations. Tens of thousands of people bet in-game items from CS:GO on these third ...
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