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AITA For not giving my wife her daughter's address so she could see the newborn?

Hear me out please. I'm a 46 year-old father who lost a daughter (Molly) years ago to Brain Cancer. Molly's death broke me. She was my only child I'm no longer who I was before this tragedy. I married my wife when my stepdaughter (Sarah) was 15. Sarah had issues with her mom. Her mom would kick her out over small arguments. She kicked her out for getting a haircut, for failing one class and other reasons. Every time she'd bring her back home and tell her to learn her lesson or she'd be kicked out. One time her mom kicked her out over a dairy at 17 and Sarah had enough and didn't return. She started working. I remained in contact. I just couldn't let her struggle I tried to help her financially but she refused. she's incredibly independent and a hard working person. She reminded me of Molly.
I decided to help in other ways. I got her a better job opportunity by calling someone I knew at the time. This way she still had to work to earn money which is something she wanted. And also work a better job that appreciated her more than the previous job. She's an artist, she wanted to be a graphic designer I sold my old car to pay for her courses. She started paying me back bit by bit only because she's independent. She lived with her then boyfriend now husband and paid for other things.
My wife didn't try to mend things. She disowned Sarah the day she got married but I stood firm and told her that I'm free to talk to Sarah and she should respect that. I attend gatherings with Sarah from time to time and she calls me dad infront of other people. In the past it was just my name. This sounds crazy but I believe this all happened just so I could meet Sarah and have a chance at being the best father that I could be.
She's now 22 and just had a babygirl a few weeks ago. I visited several times and we talked. She told me that it was unfortunate that she lost her dad but was glad she has me in her life. I cried although I'm not good at expressing emotions and it got worse after Molly's death.
My wife knew about the baby and demanded I give her the address so she could go see her granddaughter. I refused because Sarah asked me not to tell. And because she's already dealing with postpartum and will not be able to deal with her mom's behavior. My wife threw a fit and said that this is her daughter and grandbaby and I shouldn't try to stop her from seeing her. She called me selfish and cruel. The argument didn't stop. The family are agreeing with her and telling me to stay out of it. I argued with my wife about it again. And she said I had no right and that I needed to give her the address. She didn't even seem regretful or wanted to apologize. Everyone is blaming me telling I'm being cruel and demanding I give her the address.
submitted by 303367___ to AmItheAsshole [link] [comments]

Let's Cancel Religion

Even in the original Bible, it says the flood lasted for 40 days, and then not too far later on said it lasted for like 300 days. Moses led 600,000 men, 600,000 wives, and 1.8 million children out of egypt. There isn't enough rainfall in the desert for them to last a few days led alone 40 years. It's also a 6 day walk to Jerusalem from Cairo. All of the bodies around them were heavily salted. A sandstorm would have killed them all.
No where in the bible does it say that god is omnipotent, or all knowing. You just have people saying it. If he was all knowing, then he knew Satan would deceive Eve and unleash sin, which means he's either not all knowing, or he wanted sin to be unleashed. Speaking of omnipotence. He had to have Adam's rib to make Eve so he can't just poof something out of thin air. Let's not even go over the fact that names like Peter, John, Adam, etc. are European names. Because you know, it's believed to have been written in the early centuries. That's why no one questioned or have record of it. We have extensive records on everything since the beginning of language from 3800BC and no record of Jesus except in a manuscript that randomly appeared one day?
Jonah was in a whale. Whales sink down into the ocean and the pressure would have killed him. God doesn't interfere because of free will so there's no way he saved him.
If he's all powerful, then Satan would not be a thing. The reason god can't destroy Satan is because there's no story without Satan. It says that Satan must be released for a short time after 1000 years because they don't have the strength to hold him down. How do they get him back down? And that's very inconsistent because we Satan roaming around the Bible like nothing. In Job he really is just up in heaven chilling with god and was like, yo, you wanna make a bet? And then god let's him kill his family and servants.
The Bible was made by the elite back in the day for order and control. Think about it. Why would you fight in a war for your country if there was no after life? People willingly signed up to war because it was the thing that was going to get you into heaven. What about the poor? Oh, you're poor? It's better when you're dead, so don't worry about being poor.
The inconsistencies of the bible are numerous. To have the Ark make sense, it would need to be about 15x larger than it is and have the crew of at least 500. Imagine taking care of 30,000 animals. That's 60 animals per person. And if the Earth flood like it did in the bible, all of the water on earth would be salt water. But not only that, there is not enough water on Earth to flood it. If you released all of the water there was and thawed it all out, you'd lose about 20 miles of shoreline on each continent.
We are indoctrinated as children where we're sat down in Sunday school and told that if we don't love and obey this guy who we've never seen, he's going to BURN us for all eternity and you'll never see your friends or family again as you cry out in terror while being stabbed and burned alive forever and ever. It's stockholm syndrome 101. That's why it's so difficult to not believe. You might feel sick. Your cognitive dissonance will tell you I'm lying and it'll make up the most ridiculous lie to keep your original thoughts safe because that's what our brains do with conflicting information about any views. And you'll believe that BS.
//My notes//
• God is omnipotent so why can't he defeat Satan.
• If god is all knowing, why didn't god do something about Satan in the garden of Eden?
• If all things are as he planned, then he planned for Eve to steal and unleash sin.
• Jonah was in a whale for 3 MF days?
• Why do we fantasize so much about drinking and bathing in the blood of Christ?
• God gave us reasoning and logic, yet he's going to punish us for using that reasoning and logic?
• If anyone speaks out against the church, then it's Satan working through them to deceive them? Sounds like something a scammer would say "if anyone tries to tell you this is a bad deal, then that's because they're lying. They don't know what they're talking about."
• God loves us with all of his heart? Then how could he send his "children to hell" for reasons that are ultimately his fault. Would my parents torture me forever in a lake of fire? Absolutely not.
• Bible School is just indoctrinating children by mentally damaging them (stockholm syndrome) by telling them that this invisible god loves you, and that you'll spend eternity in paradise after you die from this shitty life; but only if you believe in him and undoubtedly do whatever he commands, if you don't, then you're never going to see your friends or family again while getting stabbed with pitchforks in a blazing inferno of everlasting fire and torture. But remember. HE LOVES YOU.
• We only believe in god because we're afraid of death. We want to believe it continues because it makes us uncomfortable if it doesn't, and we're uncomfortable in general not knowing if the universe recycles us; quantum physics suggests it does. (Just a side note, I'm much more comfortable knowing that I'll return to the abyss of nothingness, or potentially reliving my life in another dimension, or perhaps when the universe dies, it restarts)
• The pastopriest skips all over the Bible because if they read it out loud, people would start to realize how crazy it is.
• If Satan was real, he could easily fool us by coming to us in a different form disguised as jesus and deceive us all very hard. But, never once has he done anything remotely like that.
• God can't be all powerful if he can't stop a dude that can't even disguise himself to humans (see above) and he really can't be all powerful if he had to give his only son to "kind of" prevent sin. What the hell is that even? This guy can snap his fingers and create a universe, but needs to kill his son to eradicate sin?
• Everything that happens is according to God's plan. That's what everyone always says. So what's God's divine plan where he needs to give millions of kids cancer every year? Or have hundreds of thousands of humans raped every year? Why do some people's lives never get better even though they've prayed all of their life?
• Why do people pray if God has a plan for you? If you need something, it's going to happen or not whether or not you pray because it was already in the plan. Did he also plan for people not to believe he exists?
• Our minds are so powerful that we make up any excuse, scenario, or lie to keep our core thoughts in tact. If they're threatened, we go into defensive mode. Such situations would be "the devil is working through him to deceive others. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Well that's just plain not true. I never heard of that. Yeah, right. This person is really lost. I just choose not to believe what he's saying."
• Why did God make substances so addictive?
We believe in God because it helps us through hard times, or to have hope there's an after life. It's someone to comfort us in our head when things aren't going so well. But really, that inner voice was just you all along. And you know, it was very uncomfortable at first, but now I'm free from that torture and pressure. I use nearly every day to learn new computer skills because THIS is the only life I have, and I will waste it trying to do something great rather than hoping for an afterlife while waiting for death.
//End notes//
But I hope you heal and I hope you break free of that awful horrible religion. I studied the Bible for 16 years, and have read it front to back twice. It's 100% why THEY DON'T READ IT ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Haven't you wondered why they jump and skip whole sections in church. Because you're skipping over the eye opening material. Like, paying 100 silver shackles as a fine. Stoning a woman for having s•x. Lusting over a man's giant horse c•ck. That's seriously in there. Lol. But. Hope you get better! Take care.
submitted by Alehti to DeathByMillennial [link] [comments]

Converting to Christianity? Just as absurd as staying a Muslim.

I contemplated Christianity and even read some of the Bible as well, but not to offend your beliefs, it seemed just as absurd as the Quran if not more so.
There different versions of the Bible, some add and remove specific gospels, which then some churches/denominations deem cannon or non cannon. For example the book of enoch, the whole story is basically absurdity about a race of half human half angels, was originally in the catholic bible but later renounced. Except it is still used in some versions of the bible followed by orthodox churches in Ethiopia and Eritrea. Note that this is just one example, there are many of things being added and removed from the new testament. In fact historically, the apostles of jesus thought he would return in their lifetime, but when people alive in jesus’s lifetime started dying, they decided to wrote everything down and compile it together.
Second is the fact that jesus did not fufill the jewish prophecy of a messiah, and started claiming he was son of god and had attributes of god, which is why they decided to crucify him as they he basically went against the teachings as attributed in the hebrew bible. Now christians claim that when jesus returns he will fulfill the remaining prophecy, but this is not a jewish belief, the messiah was supposed to establish God’s kingdom and what not outright, also its been over 2000 years where is Jesus???
Third, the ridiculous amount of denominations and sects within Christianity. It has more denominations than any other religion. The fundamental belief of christians non is in the trinity and that jesus sacrifice was to free us from the original sin. Yet the original christian sects did not necessarily believe this, the original christians were jews and there were gnostics, nazarenes, ebionites the later two who rejected jesus as god or the son of god and claimed that jesus never died but was taken to god by heaven. When the concept of the trinity and resurrection were introduced, which came quite some time after these were considered heresies and condemned. Now in the modern perspective we have catholics, protestants, baptists, mormons, latter day saints, just to name a few on top of countless other denominations we span on and on. How do you know which is the right one? They have fundamental conflicting beliefs, and not all of them can be right. Simply believing in the trinity and original sin is not enough, there’s more to fundamental christian beliefs, and jesus even claims in the bible not all who call him their lord and perform miracles in his name will get to see heaven.
Fourth both religions are similar in their ridiculous theology. A lot of people bring up mohammad being a pedophile for the case of aisha. But the virgin mary was reported to be about 12 when jesus was born, some sources claim older but no more than 14. This is hardly any better, wtf god decides to impregnate a 12 year old? I understand that obviously she conceded a baby without intercourse by your beliefs of course, but it still disturbing that given her age God made her conceive his child, who was also him in flesh form (which again seems absurd, but not the point). Then there’s the stories where God commands the israelites to massacre entire villages, including the animals and children. At time God himself just sounds fairly evil. Add in how humanity was organized destined to go to hell for the original sin, adam eating the apple. It doesn’t make logical sense because why would someone be punished for another person’s mistake, when they knew nothing about this or couldn’t stop this from happening? And then jesus comes in to die for our sins, but only if we believe he’s god, son of god, and that he sacrificed himself for us, and we follow his teachings, and we abstain from further sin. Okay... why did he need to die? How can he die if he’s god? Why can’t god just forgive us without the need for all this absurdity’s? Why are even being punished for a forgotten ancestor’s mistake? What did any of this prove if people are still going to go to hell, for choosing to wrong religion, thinking its the path to god, or the wrong sect thinking that their path to salvation was the true path and that the path to salvation was narrow and that few find it?
This is no better than Islamic theology where you can be a really good person, do your best to help animals and humanity, avoid harming anything or anyone with your words or actions, and even hold onto a belief that maybe god exists but no being able to know which god given the thousands of religions and sects. In the end youre spend an ETERNITY being tortured in a gruesome manner while some asshole who believed and asks for forgiveness for his sins before he dies goes to heaven? This is fundamentally bullshit, how can God claim to be loving, benevolent, merciful and then condemn people to being tortured forever because they believed in a wrong version of him or didnt know if he existed???? Not even the worst of humanity would do that! And not only this but the lack of proof of his existence! All these stories of him performing crazy miracles back in the day, raising the dead, water into wine, all sorts of stuff and now he does nothing? All we have are arbitrary books which are incredibly vague, make no sense, contradict themselves and each other, require centuries of study and still can’t be explained properly with millions of interpretations? As for miracles of god, how many times if you prayed for something genuine, like for a loved one to be safe, or for God to help you pass a test, or something innocent, and been refused? People who pray for their cancer or diseases to go away but still died and were not christian thus sent to hell? This is not love, this is not justice, this is EVIL at its core. This is the most significant contradiction I find in these two religions, and aside from this we find countless other contradictions, God gives us free will but predestines us and has his own plan for all of us, God tells us not to kill but then commands us to kill anyways, God says he loves us more than anyone else but smites us for making a mistake, then theres the literal contradictions in the bible where one thing is said, then the opposite is said later.
Atleast hindus, jains, sikhs, bahais, buddhists, jews believe that we’re judged for our own actions and not arbitrary belief. Some religions remove the idea of hell altogether saying that life on earth (given how much pain and suffering there is) is the closest to ‘hell’ we would be and to become close to god we just have to be good to those around us, and if we fail, we get to try again in another life until we get it right.
The fact of the matter is though that Newton’s third law, an action has an equal and opposite reaction, is justice. If I don’t believe in God for 60 years, he doesn’t believe in me and I cease to exist for 60 years, that’s fair. But what isn’t fair is an eternity of burning in a fire. Even a serial killer, he deserves to be punished for a finite period of time in relation to his sin. He kills 10 people, he should die 10 painful deaths, he lives 50 years as a murder, okay then 50 years in hell, not an eternity. But even then, a serial killer probably did some things in his life which were good as well, those can’t go ignored either right? Eventually he should get salvation. Now God claims to love us more than anyone else and be super merciful or whatever, more than anyone else. How can that be, if he creates a literal place for eternal torture for a creation of his that he made imperfect, and basically now way to affirm his presence but plenty of ways to reject everything i his sacred to texts. I remember Abdullah Sameer saying that if you create a product with a 8% failure rate, thats very bad and you need to improve it before releasing it to the public. But if the failure rate is fuckin over 80% this is horrible and by no means should you release it. That’s basically what God did tho, if were given destiny by him we don’t even have a fact in the matter. He’s punishing us for something he himself willed. This world is proof enough that God isn’t most merciful, kind, loving, whatever. Look at all these natural disasters, disease, war, torture, starvation. People resort to its God’s punishment, okay but I thought God was most merciful? I am indifferent to most people most I would anyone, not even a crazed pyscho murdering pedophile rapist to be inflicted with a painful disease or beaten to death. Rather I would want him to get the appropriate help so that he can reform and become a productive member of society who does good for the people and the world. So now by that logic, me, an ordinary dude on reddit, is more merciful than God. Now take in how entire nations get killed due to trivial shit. Look at what happened to the jews in the holocast, look at whats happening to kids starving in africa and india, look at how christians and enslaved are being killed by ISIS in arab countries, look at how muslims are being tortured and killed in China, Burma, and North Korea, look at the extensive history of racial violence of large scale disasters that killed and gravely injured millions. Not all of them could have been bad people or had the wrong belief right? Wtf. Meanwhile some of the richest people in the world are funny enough agnostic or atheist. Elon Musk, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Larry Page. It doesn’t take much faith or proof to look around the world and see that it isn’t fair or just which goes against the principle that God if fair or just, and throw in an afterlife, were the majority if people are tortured forever, and this basically sounds no different than a fairytale.
Funny enough Islam and Christianity are also the only two religions that really had forced conversion indoctrinated into them. That explains why the majority of the world falls into these two, because of people killing and enslaving each other for not believing its the truth, and using the fear of the death penalty, punishment in the grave, and hell to beat them into submission.
To this very day I am still terrified of what happens if I die, thanks to the harmful ideologies imposed by my family through their religion, and if I was born Christian it would have been the exact same. Sorry for the rant but I feel I just had to let all of this out lmao.
submitted by saimee1000 to exmuslim [link] [comments]

God wants me to be an Atheist

If an omniscient and omnipotent god exists and he has revealed himself to some people, then the people he hasn't revealed himself to yet are justified in their unbelief
Please excuse my English. It's not my primary language. Also, sorry if this topic has been debated before. I'm new to the community and this is my first post.
Keep in mind that throughout this post when I say God I'm referring to a deity like the one described by the Abrahamic religions, the omniscient, omnipotent, interfering, and personal kind.
I'm sincerely looking for the truth. So far, what seems to be the truth is that there is nothing supernatural. I have never seen or experienced anything in my life that required a supernatural explanation.
However, I've met plenty of people that have experienced such things. Or at least they have interpreted certain events as being supernatural.
All believers that I know have experienced some event in their lives that they have interpreted as evidence of the supernatural or of God's existence. It's only in forums like these that I have met people expressing cosmological or philosophical arguments for believing. Out in the real world, it is almost guaranteed that if you ask someone why they believe the answer ultimately leads to some personal experience and not to some scholarly theological argument.
Some examples I've heard are: answered prayers, surviving near-fatal accidents, witnessing incredible transformations of character (addiction recovery, reformed criminals, etc.), God opening their eyes to the beauty and complexity of the universe and life, God talked to them, an angel visited them in their dreams, and a huge list of miracles and other personal stories.
Every time I hear one of these stories I interpret them as natural events, but they interpret them as being supernatural and attribute them to their deity of choice.
I don't want to focus on each one of these examples because that's not the point of this post. But in general you can imagine what is going through my mind when I hear these stories:
The reason for their belief essentially boils down to some improbable event happening or some cathartic experience and they attributing this to their faith. In reality this all seems like a misunderstanding of how statistics and probabilities work. If there is an illness that kills 99.999% of the people afflicted by it, for the 0.001% that survive it it'll appear to be a miracle.
For many religious people my line of thinking may seem cynical. But it comes from a sincere and honest search for the truth, and not from a sense of cynicism and dismissal of their personal experiences.
If you care about what's true then you must recognize that it's natural and expected for improbable events to happen. This is by definition, since improbable doesn't mean impossible.
It is also natural and expected for animals with complex brains like ours to have experiences of deep jubilation, mystical even. It's just what brains do when they get overwhelmed by naturally produced chemicals (serotonin, dopamine, adrenaline, etc.). This unusual but natural state of mind can be completely cathartic, bringing you to your knees, tingling sensation in your entire body, tears in your eyes. The aftermath, returning to baseline, can feel like you are a new person, like you just had a divine encounter. However, this is what brains do after having had a shot of all the good juices flowing inside, triggered by some powerful event.
The god of the Abrahamic religions, being omniscient, knows exactly what kind of event I need to experience in my life to believe in his existence.
The fact that I don't seem to have experienced a convincing event yet can mean that:
In the first case you have to agree that it's not my fault I don't believe. Me being atheist is all part of God's plan. He is keeping me an atheist by his own choice. It is unreasonable for me to believe a specific religion over other religions just by blind faith alone. That is not how our brains work. We need to have some mechanism to distinguish which one is the real one. I haven't met a single believer that doesn't claim to have experienced some sort of revelation. So why expect unbelievers to believe something when they haven't had that privilege?
The second case is either a logical contradiction or it implies that I'm being dishonest or irrational - - e.g. I was actually convinced by certain event but willingly chose to say I wasn't and act as if I didn't believe. But for the sake of argument let's assume I'm being sincere in my disbelief, as in I'm not merely pretending to be an atheist. If such event happened then God is not omniscient or omnipotent because he presented an event for me that wasn't convincing. Thus we return back to where we started: a logical contradiction.
That means that the only valid explanation is that unbelievers don't believe because it's God's will that they don't.
Or, the answer that seems more plausible to me is that such a being doesn't exist and people just keep mistaking natural improbable events with supernatural miraculous ones.
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TL;DR
God Has Revealed Himself God Hasn't Revealed Himself
Believer This person's belief is fully rational and justified. All believers I've met insist they fall in this category. I obviously disagree because I don't believe God exists. To me they have simply mistaken a natural event for a supernatural one, and then attributed it to God. This person's belief is irrational and unjustified. I haven't met a single believer that claims to fall into this category. However, Religion has somehow convinced people that believing something without evidence is somehow a virtue, so I wouldn't be surprised. Anyways, since I don't believe God exists and inexistent beings don't reveal themselves then, to me all believers actually fall into this category.
Non-Believer This is a contradiction. An all-knowing and all-powerful god would know exactly the kind of revelation needed to convince this person. If the revelation was not convincing enough then either God is not all-knowing or not all-powerful or doesn't care, and then by definition God hasn't actually revealed himself to this person. This person's unbelief is fully rational and justified. Either God doesn't exist or He wants this person to be an atheist.
Believers, here are some topics of conversation:
Thanks!
submitted by HugeGlitch to DebateReligion [link] [comments]

57 Non-Prog Albums for Prog Fans

Hi there again! You might remember my previous posts, including my tournaments, lists of songs and albums, etc. I’m really enjoying my exploration of tons of new music in a huge variety of genres, and I thought I’d make a list of recommendations specifically curated for the open-minded prog fan (hopefully, those exist!).
I picked some of my favorite albums I’ve discovered within the past couple years in many different genres that would especially appeal to you guys. I’ve definitely hinted at this in previous threads, but this time, I know the material a lot better – not just recommending based on one listen and only knowing a single album in a genre.
So here’s my list of non-prog (or borderline) albums that I think any prog fan would love. Pick any genre, and I bet you’ll find something amazing there. Italicized albums are especially recommended! (Yes, many of these are VERY popular, but there’s a good chance most people haven’t heard every one of them.)
Soul
Marvin Gaye—What’s Going On: Rolling Stone actually gets it right with this at #1 overall. Prog fans will love the perfect flow between songs and the super grand arrangements. Definitely a musical essential.
Stevie Wonder—Songs in the Key of Life: I mean, these songs are all perfect. You’ll love the dense grooves, and honestly, this is the one album that I cannot fathom a single person disliking.
Tyler, the Creator—Igor: moving to 2019, here’s an album with extremely detailed and complex production that’s popular, ambitious, and fantastic.
Janelle Monae—The ArchAndroid: ok, a neo-soul concept album about a messianic android in five suites WITH OVERTURES literally called Metropolis. Should be way more popular among prog fans imo. Brilliant pop songs.
Jazz
Fela Kuti—Expensive Shit: Fela pioneered the style of Afrobeat, which mixes Nigerian music with jazz-funk. Brilliant short album with two 10ish minute songs that’ll get you grooving. Definitely read the backstory of the title track.
Pharoah Sanders—Karma: unbelievable spiritual jazz album. At this point I’m just recommending my favorite jazz albums, because you definitely should check out the genre if you like prog, especially King Crimson.
Charles Mingus—The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady: the jazz masterpiece with the most complex and “proggy” composition, although it would be more accurate to say “Red” is the prog album with the most Mingus-y style.
John Coltrane—A Love Supreme: probably my favorite jazz album and certainly perfection.
The Comet Is Coming—Trust in the Lifeforce of the Deep Mystery: electronic space jazz fusion from 2019, courtesy of Shabaka Hutchings. One track sounds exactly like jazz “Starship Trooper,” and other has a brilliant spoken word passage on top of a speedy sax solo.
Indie
Joanna Newsom—Ys: masterpiece of modern progressive folk, once you get used to the vocals. The string arrangements are incredibly intricate.
Stereolab—Emperor Tomato Ketchup*,* Dots and Loops: chill yet harmonically complex band that blends noise rock, bossa nova, artsy indie pop, jazzy chord progressions, and French vocals into hypnotic bliss. Both of these albums are absolutely brilliant and should be mentioned here a lot more.
Sufjan Stevens—Illinois*,* The Age of Adz, Carrie and Lowell: in my opinion the best indie artist, Sufjan takes a different approach on each album. His masterpiece, Illinois, showcases a mixture of flashy progressive pop and melancholic indie folk – go listen to it now! The Age of Adz tackles pop songwriting with electronic overload and a 25 prog pop epic at the end, Impossible Soul. Carrie and Lowell features stripped down indie folk pieces and cuts at my heartstrings. Strongly, strongly recommend his work.
Sweet Trip—Velocity: Design: Comfort: shoegaze + glitchy electronic + indie pop, a great combination. They have a new album coming out this spring.
Pop
Shiina Ringo—Kalk Samen Kuri No Hana: combines the catchiest pop hooks with the craziest instrumentation and chord progressions. I cannot get enough of this album. It’s unbelievable.
Tears for Fears—The Seeds of Love: you know this album if you’ve ever watched a Steven Wilson interview. He’s totally right about it, brilliant.
Björk—Homogenic, Vespertine: I am absolutely obsessed with Björk’s music more than anything else in the world. Both of these are desert island discs for me. Her voice is just indescribable. Please listen!
Kate Bush—Hounds of Love: you’ve probably heard this mentioned as the greatest progressive pop album, and whoever said that has a point. The first half is loaded with pop bangers, and the second contains a prog-like medley that works just as well as the one on Abbey Road.
Talk Talk—Spirit of Eden, Laughing Stock: you might have seen Steven Wilson mention this 80’s experimental pop group. Super lush and ambient, yet profound. Called “post-rock” too, but I don’t like that genre title.
Sigur Ros—Agaetis Byrjun: ethereal Icelandic dream pop with gorgeous and emotive vocals from Jonsi. Absolutely one of my go-to comfort/emotional albums. Called “post-rock” too, but I don’t like that genre title (2).
“Experimental”/Metal/Post-Rock
John Zorn—Naked City: avant-garde jazz + grindcore punk makes for quite the entertaining experience. I’ve been meaning to check out “At the Mountains of Madness” too, which is apparently quite a gargantuan album.
Kayo Dot—Choirs of the Eye: I jokingly describe this album as “Avant-Garde Classical Ambient Doom Death Black Poetry Metal,” and yeah, that about sums it up. Not as heavy as the “Death Doom Black” section of that would suggest, but “The Manifold Curiosity” contains one of the most cathartic and powerful sections of music I have ever heard.
Agalloch—The Mantle: post-rock + (light) black metal + dark folk, for fans of Opeth. Despite the black metal tag, it’s not that heavy. I can actually sit through it and enjoy it, and the “worst” vocals feel almost like whispers.
Anna von Hausswolff—Dead Magic: she’s a talented organ player, but the real highlights here are her acrobatic vocals and astonishingly cathartic buildups. The 16 minute “Ugly and Vengeful” is beyond words.
Godspeed You! Black Emperor—Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven: The pinnacle of post-rock. While listening to Storm, I cannot believe humanity has created something so beautiful. And if you like 20 minute tracks, you’ve got four perfect ones here.
Alternative Rock
Radiohead—OK Computer, Kid A: Radiohead has a fair claim to the “best band of all time” label. These two diametrically opposed masterpieces both fall within my top 10 LPs ever. No music fan should miss them!
Muse—Origin of Symmetry: the more theatrical version of Radiohead can sometimes be too much for me, but several songs such as the gripping opener “New Born” always blow me away.
Mr. Bungle—California: Absolutely no idea why this isn’t considered progressive rock. The peak of crazy genre-switching intermixed with great ballads like “Retrovertigo.” Particularly, any early Haken fan that wants less Dream Theater influence needs this record (I know, specific, but it applies to me, soooooo…).
Kairon; IRSE!—Polysomn: psychedelic rock + post-rock + shoegaze with a little hint of prog. It’s euphoric, and they’re possibly my artist of the decade!
Jeff Buckley—Grace: classic singer-songwriter album with some complex chord progressions. The title track is one of my all-time favorite songs, and Buckley gives a vocal performance to die for.
Classic Rock
The Zombies—Odessey and Oracle: beautiful harmonies, would be surprised if Yes did not love this record.
The Beatles—Abbey Road: I mean, you know this already, right?
Led Zeppelin—Houses of the Holy: same here, any Zeppelin is great, but here’s the best for a prog fan.
David Bowie—Blackstar, Low: my two favorite Bowie albums might convince you if Ziggy Stardust was too in-your-face. (I love TRAFOZSATSFM, what an acronym.) Both are absolutely brilliant.
Electronic
Flying Lotus—Cosmogramma: vibrant, colorful, maximalist electronic from FlyLo. Absolutely no idea why Tangerine Dream is considered progressive electronic and this masterpiece isn’t. I guess this has more to do with jazz?
Ulver—Perdition City: a former black metal band dives into sizzling trip-hop that could score a Batman movie.
Aphex Twin—Drukqs: you want complex? You got it! How could a human program that shit?
Boards of Canada—Geogaddi: haunting, nostalgic IDM (“intelligent dance music,” possibly the snobbiest genre name this side of “progressive rock”). Perhaps the greatest study album.
Tim Hecker—Virgins: my favorite ambient record. The grandness of “Dark Side of the Moon,” but instrumental.
Hip-Hop
Kendrick Lamar—To Pimp a Butterfly: probably the greatest hip-hop album ever, I know that’s a basic opinion. The jazzy instrumentals combined with great lyrics form a very profound record. Add Thundercat on bass, Kamasi Washington on sax, and Flying Lotus handling arrangements, you’ve got a masterpiece. Best intro to hip-hop.
Digable Planets—Blowout Comb: great jazz rap album.
Madvillain—Madvillainy: MF DOOM and Madlib create brilliant music through short snippets and sample-filled verses. Spot the Gentle Giant sample – it’s actually super cool in a rap context. “Supervillain Theme” is my favorite sub 1-minute song ever, possibly.
Death Grips—The Powers That B: especially Disc 1, with its ‘chopped-and-screwed’ Björk samples. This is absolutely the closest hip-hop has gotten to being “progressive” in the prog rock sense, even as it’s obviously progressive in many other ways. Surreal, glitchy, complex, somehow catchy, and addictive. Check this out even if you tried “The Money Store” and didn’t like it – that’s how I got into them.
DJ Shadow—Endtroducing…: this record is made ENTIRELY out of samples, literally piecing together passages from thousands of other records over years to create a jazzy, psychedelic masterpiece of instrumental hip-hop. A completely new way to make music… that’s the most progressive thing.
Massive Attack—Mezzanine: instead of the “Rage Against the Machine” style of rapping over rock instrumentation, Mezzanine features lush hip-hop beats but mostly melodic pop or rock songs over the top. But where this masterpiece of trip-hop really gets going is the heavy guitar driven climaxes of “Angel,” “Dissolved Girl,” and “Group Four.” A very good entry point to hip-hop, because it’s really only halfway there.
Punk/Post-Punk/Math Rock (“Pronk”)
Talking Heads—Remain in Light: I’m not a massive fan of post-punk, but the thick, detailed grooves of the Heads always hit the spot. The first half of this album is perfect. Featuring a couple Adrian Belew solos!
Hella—Hold Your Horse Is: best math rock album, I think. Insane drumming and stellar tappy twinkly guitar playing.
Don Caballero—What Burns Never Returns: another great math rock album. You’ll get the idea of the genre from these two albums. Most math rock releases sound the same as each other, but they’re all quite good!
black midi—Schlagenheim: the next big prog (adjacent) band to watch. If you want a fresh take on 80s King Crimson, look no further. 953 is electrifying, and the frontman (Geordie Greep) is totally bonkers.
Slint—Spiderland: insanely influential 1991 album that spawned a million different genres like post-rock and math rock. The spoken word vocals and sudden time changes create an atmosphere of paranoia. Great lyrics, too.
Glenn Branca—The Ascension: very unique album, composed like a symphony but using an atonal punk aesthetic to get the point across. I’ve seen the album described as the musical equivalent of anxiety, and yeah, that’s pretty accurate. The buildups foreshadow post-rock, too.
TL;DR 10 Albums to Get You Into Non-Prog (chronological order):
  1. Charles Mingus—The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (Avant-Garde Jazz)
  2. Marvin Gaye—What’s Going On (Soul)
  3. Talking Heads—Remain in Light (Post-Punk/New Wave)
  4. DJ Shadow—Endtroducing… (Instrumental Hip-Hop/Plunderphonics)
  5. Björk—Homogenic (Art Pop)
  6. Godspeed You! Black Emperor—Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven (Experimental/Post-Rock)
  7. Shiina Ringo—Kalk Samen Kuri No Hana (Experimental Art Pop)
  8. Sufjan Stevens—Illinois (Symphonic Indie Pop/Indie Folk)
  9. Flying Lotus—Cosmogramma (Electronic/Jazz Fusion)
  10. Kendrick Lamar—To Pimp A Butterfly (Jazz Rap)
I didn’t include OK Computer, Kid A, Abbey Road, and Blackstar because I think most people would have heard those before. If you haven’t, they absolutely qualify here!
I hope you love whichever albums you try!
Edit: u/CommunistOrc had such a great comment that I'd like to copy/paste it here for you all!
Wow. Incredible list, tons of amazing albums from a diverse range of genres. For anyone who likes some of these albums, but wants more from the same artists, I'll compile a list of other, maybe less popular albums from some of the same artists that I think are just as worth checking out:
Pharoah Sanders - Black Unity: This is the spiritual free jazz from Karma taken to a groovier, more experimental dimension, with two dueling bassists playing one of the best basslines of all time. It slowly escalates to the point of chaos, but is always stunningly fascinating.
John Coltrane - The Olatunji Concert: While this isn't my favorite Trane album, it's damn close, and what it lacks compared to Live in Japan's scale, it makes up for it raw aggression, and emotion. This was three months before he died, and he was suffering from liver cancer. The pain in his playing is evident, a man breathing his pain out through his saxophone, creating some of the most emotionally and spiritually intense music ever recorded. The recording quality gives it an even more raw edge, that makes this my second favorite jazz album of all time.
Sweet Trip - You Will Never Know Why: This album dials it back from VDC's glitchy shoegazey IDM, to a more electronic indie pop sort of zone. This album has some of the best songwriting of all time I feel, with so many bangers it should be illegal. Highly recommended for Sweet Trip fans, or for those who thought VDC was a bit much, either in length, or sound.
Mark Hollis - s/t: Mark Hollis (singer, songwriter, and frontman of Talk Talk) released one solo album, that carries on in the same vein as Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock, but even more sparse, and bleak. I find this to be a wonderful listen, essential for Talk Talk fans.
Electric Masada - At The Mountains of Madness: This double CD live album from Electric Masada, led by John Zorn, is avant-garde jazz fusion, strongly influenced also by both metal and klezmer. Yeah, very wild combination of styles, and it's an equally wild listen. Comparisons to Bitches Brew are common here, and while they are certainly different sounding albums, they are similar in terms of revolutionary genre fusion, and massive scope. Recommended for fusion fans, especially those who like Bitches Brew.
GY!BE - F#A#∞: GY!BE's first album (All Lights Fucked doesn't count) is their quietest, and most interesting to me. The heavy use of samples and spoken word create an atmosphere of dreading, and the instrumentals are simply breathtaking. Like watching the immediate aftermath of an apocalyptic cataclysmic event.
Kairon; IRSE! - Ujubasajuba: Not a ton to say here, just really good shoegaze. Gnarly guitar tones, a definite must listen for any shoegaze fan, though not a good entry point to the genre (Loveless and Souvlaki are better)
Freddie Gibbs and Madlib - Pinata: Madlib provides some of the best beats of his career here, rivaling his work on Madvillainy, but I tend to prefer Gibbs as a rapper to MF DOOM. Heresy, I know. DOOM is amazing at what he does, I just don't enjoy what he does a ton. Anyway, this album is one of the best hip-hop albums of the 2010s, and is required listening for any Madvillainy fan.
Glenn Branca - The Third Ascension: This takes the totalist nightmare of The Ascension and turns it up to 11. This is the soundtrack of hell being unleashed into our mortal realm. One of my friends once described this album as "Glenn Branca detonating a nuclear bomb on your head, instantly killing you," and I find that apt. The first 30 seconds of Cold Thing are some of the most intimidating, downright terrifying music I've ever heard. The kind of music that activates your fight or flight response.
Finally, this isn't related to any album on OP's list, but The Microphones - The Glow Pt. 2 is my favorite album of all time, and something I think any music lover should give a go at least once. Ideally more than once, since it is a grower I think. The songwriting is stunningly beautiful, or mysteriously hypnotic, or catchy, or noisy and furious, and more. The variety on display in this indie folk / rock album is immense. The amount of ground it covers in its 20 song, hour long runtime is massive, but it never feels like too much. Furthermore, the production is immaculate, with so many layers and details that I think I've noticed something new on literally every listen. The emotional attachment I have to this album is massive, but even putting that aside, I still think it's a basically perfect album. If you only listen to one album from this comment, make it this one.
Edit 2: u/boredop made another great comment that I'd like to add in!
A few things from the jazz/funk/soul side of the universe:
I gotta say, I am always surprised when I meet someone who is into prog but not jazz. They seem like such obvious bedfellows to me. Jazz at its best has everything prog fans love - virtuosity, rhythmic complexity, intricate compositions, usually with the added bonus of swinging like crazy.
Thanks for reading!
submitted by Muzak_For_A_Nurse to progrockmusic [link] [comments]

Album of the Year #24: Run The Jewels - RTJ4

Artist: Run The Jewels
Album: RTJ4
Date Released: June 3rd, 2020
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Artist Background
The duo consisting of Atlanta rapper Killer Mike, and legendary underground produceMC El-P, known together as Run The Jewels, originally came together as a result of Adult Swim executive Jason DeMarco who introduced the two in 2011. After his 2011 album PL3DGE peaked at #115 on the US charts, Killer Mike told Jason that he wanted to make his own AmeriKKKa’s Most Wanted. Jason informed Mike, “If you want AmeriKKKa’s Most Wanted modernized, the only producer I know who comes close to the Bomb Squad-level of production is El-P”. The duo’s chemistry was immediate, as El-P went on to produce all of Killer Mike’s 2012 last solo album R.A.P. Music, and Mike featured on El-P’s final solo album Cancer 4 Cure. Mike and El’s respective albums released within a week of each other in May 2012, and the two embarked on a twenty-city US tour in the following months. After returning from tour, the pair had found a friendship growing between themselves, and made the decision to put other projects on hold and focus on the chemistry that had been sparked. Recording at an upstate NY studio beginning in April 2013, the duo re-appropriated the phrase “Run The Jewels” from the LL Cool J track “Cheesy Rat Blues", and released their self-titled collaborative album, for free via digital download, only a mere 2 months later in June 2013.
36” Chain vs. Pistol & Fist
Run The Jewels discography currently exists in a distinct pairing. With Run The Jewels as their debut, this record set the group's tone as a light-hearted, braggadocious duo with as much confidence in their abilities as swag in their punchlines. Just over a year later, the sequel Run The Jewels 2 took the foundation set from their freshman effort and dialed the insanity up to 11. RTJ2 pushed the boundaries of their aggression and flows to new heights; with incredible energy in their verses, and absolutely impeccable beats, blending El-P’s signature industrial sound with sharp synth arpeggios, chopped Zach De La Rocha vocals, and absolutely bonkers Travis Barker drums.
It was then nearly 3 years before Jamie and Mike followed up their breakout RTJ2, with Run The Jewels 3 being released again ahead of its scheduled release date via free digital download, this time on Christmas Eve 2016. Instead of these two attempting to outdo the pure insanity and in-your-face attitude found in their predecessor, Mike and El decide to evolve themselves as a group. The duo had noticeably pulled back on the swag and dick jokes which made such a splash on RTJ2, instead choosing a more subdued, electronic approach to their beats, as well as a clearly stronger political approach in their lyrics. This change in sound and style is demonstrated in the album cover’s artwork. The first two records featured the distinctive RTJ “Pistol and Fist”, with the fist tightly gripping a chain. The chain, in my opinion, represents the swag and braggadocio that drove the aggressive nature of their first two albums. In RTJ3 the chain is removed, leaving only hands that have transformed from bleeding and bandaged, to a pristine gold.
This brings us to early 2020. It’s been nearly 4 years of living in a post-Trump America, and El-P announces that Run The Jewels fourth record has been completed. Mike and El live-stream the first single “yankee and the brave” on Instagram on March 22nd, 2020. Lyrically and sonically, RTJ4 exists as the successor to Run The Jewels 3, with Mike and El again taking the good from their previous effort and launching it into the creative stratosphere. El-P’s beats are again leaning towards the synthetic, electronic side, this time with the intensity dialed all the way up to 11. From a lyrical perspective, RTJ takes the politically-charged lyrics from their predecessor, and again, up the ante, laying down some of the hardest hitting and politically poignant bars either of these two have ever spit.
Album Review
2020 was a year that none of us will soon forget. An unprecedented global health crisis kept the majority of us inside for months at a time. RTJ4 was announced on May 12th, 2020, with a release date slated for June 5th, 2020. However, with 2020 as the gift that won’t stop giving, the end of May was highlighted by the unjust killing of George Floyd. The phrase heard around the world, “I can’t breathe” instantly became a rally-cry for the oppressed to finally take to the streets to demand systemic police reform, as Floyd’s death was not the first time this phrase was uttered in an unjust police killing. In fact, a 2020 study by the New York Times showed that at least 70 people have died in police custody after using the same phrase over the past decade. As millions of American’s began organizing protests and demonstrations in the wake of Floyd’s death, Run The Jewels made the decision to release their latest chapter two days ahead of the scheduled release. El-P tweeted, just minutes ahead of the drop, “Fuck it, why wait. The world is infested with bullshit, so here’s something raw to listen to while you deal with it all. We hope it brings you some joy. Stay safe and hopeful out there and thank you for giving 2 friends the chance to be heard and do what they love”. In line with all past Run The Jewels releases, the album was made available for free digital download, two days ahead of its scheduled release date, on June 3rd, 2020.
THE RETURN (we don’t mean no harm but we truly mean all the disrespect)
RTJ4 opens with the first single, “yankee and the brave (ep. 4)”. Using the team names from their respective hometown baseball teams, Mike and El use the opening track to prove that they’re not just a hip-hop duo, they’re brothers, for better or worse. El-P kicks this installment off with rapid-fire, machine-gun esque snares, matching Killer Mike’s aggressive flow and tightly packed rhymes, before El jumps in to trade some dense rhymes as well. Mike and El depict themselves as outlaws, with Mike surrounded by cops with only one bullet remaining. He contemplates suicide instead of allowing the police to take him alive, until El-P jumps back in, offering Mike a way out, with a getaway car waiting outside. This tense situation is depicted lightheartedly in this song’s music video, which was released via Adult Swim and features the duo animated.
The trade-off between Mike and El’s short verses are reminiscent of late-80’s EPMD flows, while the production sounds like boom-bap that’s been sent to us from the future. This distinctive blend of old-school rap roots and forward thinking production is what continues to separate Run The Jewels from absolutely all of their contemporaries. While so many artists are continually playing catch-up with the latest trends, RTJ are side-stepping the trendy and moving forward with the mind-bending.
FLEXIN’ (ayo one for mayhem, two for mischief)
The second single “ooh la la” samples a Gang Star track "DWYCK (feat. Nice & Smooth)" as the basis for the chorus. I say “samples” as that’s how it is credited in the album’s liner notes, however it’s truly an interpolation of Greg Nice’s bar, slowed down slightly, and sung by El-P and Greg Nice himself. El-P is a true old-head at heart, and it’s abundantly obvious in his work, even going as far as to recruit legendary producer DJ Premiere to handle the scratching on the back end of this banger.
Out of key piano chords are looped to quickly create an unsettling aura surrounding the track, before El-P’s voice cuts through the infectious piano like a whip. Pounding, up-tempo drums are introduced after the chorus’ first iteration, creating what is possibly El-P’s first danceable beat. Lyrically, Mike and El-P initially seem scattered on this track, however the music video quickly makes their point very obvious.
”we imagined the world on the day that the age old struggle of class was finally over. a day that humanity, empathy and community were victorious over the forces that would separate us based on arbitrary systems created by man.
this video is a fantasy of waking up on a day that there is no monetary system, no dividing line, no false construct to tell our fellow man that they are less or more than anyone else. not that people are without but that the whole meaning of money has vanished. that we have somehow solved our self created caste system and can now start fresh with love, hope and celebration. its a dream of humanity’s V-DAY… and the party we know would pop off.”
The video envisions a society celebrating the fact that the class system we currently exist within has finally imploded. Money is worthless, and we have rejected the desire to bind ourselves to the constraints of capitalism. All creeds and colors unite to burn the system that has so effectively controlled us for over a century. It’s a party, and if there was a song to celebrate the end of the world as it is currently known, “ooh la la” is that song.
Mike’s last verse features a few metaphors and comparisons celebrating the destruction of capitalism, saving the most poignant for last:
I used to love Bruce, but livin' my vida loca
Helped me understand I'm probably more of a Joker
When we usher in chaos, just know that we did it smiling
Cannibals on this island, inmates run the asylum
Premo’s expertly cut scratches lead us into the equally hard hitting sample flip of “Misdemeanor”, by Foster Stevens as the basis for the beat to “out of sight”. Lending yet another nod to the old-school greats that laid the foundation for RTJ, “out of sight” samples the same track as The D.O.C.’s “It’s Funky Enough”, only adding a bouncy, electronic synth atop the inverted chord hits, and uptempo, industrial drums, to create an absolutely infectious groove for Mike and El’s dynamic chemistry to shine, rapidly jumping between each other’s two line flows in the first verse.
“out of sight” shows each MC providing insight into how each of them earned a living and achieved their current status. Mike and El’s opening verse each details themselves robbing people in order to eat. El alludes to the fact that he crossed his accomplices in crime for the whole bag, while Mike details the fact his assailant tells him it’s an “honor” to be robbed by his mother’s only son.
While El-P’s production is the obvious stand out on first listen, Killer Mike comes through with one of the most sonically pleasing and technically proficient verses of 2020.
We the motivating, devastating, captivating
Ghost and Rae relating product of the fuckin' '80s
Coke dealin' babies, never regulating, bag accumulating
It would not be overstating to say they are underrating
The pride of Brooklyn and the Grady, baby
We don't need no compliments or confidence
Our attitude and latitude is "fuck you, pay me"
The dense, intricate rhyme schemes smack you in the face, almost distracting you from Mike’s delivery and blistering flow on the verse; flexing his legendary status while paying homage to his drug-dealing past. This absolutely stunning display of technical skill, story telling, and complex rhyming illustrates how RTJ seamlessly integrates the best of both old school and new school hip-hop.
“out of sight” also features a guest verse from 2 Chainz, and he continues to lay the braggadocio on thick. Considering Tity Boi’s dedication to trap stylings, his verse feels right at home on the flex track, despite it’s late 80’s tribute sample, a considerable departure from his usual sound palette.
Up until this point, I haven’t mentioned any of the El-P’s lyrics specifically. El-P is a great rapper, but Killer Mike… Well, Killer Mike is an incredible rapper. He’s the guy who draws you in. El-P is the one who lays the foundation for greatness and Mike is the show stopper, and that’s generally the case for most RTJ tracks. But on “holy calamafuck”, El-P seems determined to make people stop and ask, “Who the fuck is this?!”.
A sharp, yet nearly minimalistic drum kit backing a heavily distorted synthesizer melody lays beneath rhymically knocking cow-bells. This aggressively set stage allows Mike and El to flex as the dynamic duo they are, until the beat suddenly takes a turn for the chaotic. A gnarled, ultra-menacing synth overtakes everything while Mike screams into the abyss, until a distorted snare, enormous 808s, and skeletal hi-hats cut through and launch the beat switch into another dimension. The minimal, yet incredibly dark soundscape allows El-P to snap in a way I have never heard from him previously. His rhymes schemes are reminiscent of an old MF DOOM lyric notebook, while his topics flawlessly combine flexing, psychedelic use, and his well-cemented legacy in the hip-hop community. Cutting and pasting a few of his bars into this review could not convey a fraction of how stunning El-P’s performance on “holy calamafuck” is.
Slightly later in the track list, making liberal use of the Ether song “Gang of Four”, “the ground below” samples and loops the sharp guitar riff and adds aggressive, pounding drums as the basis for the beat; this is finally reminiscent of the forward-thinking, stridulous production El-P has built his reputation on. Capitalising on the classic RTJ moment, Mike and El both flex in their own unique ways. Mike compares himself to Godzilla taking on Tokyo, and El-P demands respect for his name as the legend he is, threatening to smack dying children for mispronouncing his name with his middle finger to the world; his complete disregard for human life and confidence in his abilities are summed up at the end of his verse.
You see a future where Run the Jewels ain’t the shit
Cancel my Hitler-killing trip
Turn the time machine back around a century
SO¢IAL JU$T-ICE (until my voice go from a shriek to whisper...)
While the first few tracks aren’t without their social and political themes, the back-end of RTJ4 is where Mike and El start to bust out the heavy topics. “goonies vs. E.T.”. starts off light, with El-P pointing to the irony of how once he finally started to make it “big” in the industry, the world began to descend into chaos due to climate changes, increasingly obvious social injustice, and political madness. He culminates his frustration with our disregard for the Earth with a fantastic quotable.
Fuck y’all got, another planet on stash?
Far from the fact of the flames and our trash
That is not snow, it is ash, and you gotta know
The past got a wrath, it’s a lover gone mad
Mike’s verse takes the light-hearted frustration expressed by El-P, and turns the aggression to the next level. Aiming his sights against the ruling class and their society that’s been designed to oppress people for profit, who have very meticulously painted themselves as celebrities and idols to the American public. Mike accepts that he will be villainized by these people for speaking against them, but he welcomes the nefarious role, knowing that the working class will eventually eat the rich, no matter how much they are stomped into the dirt.
And this is just the warmup.
If it’s possible for a song to represent a moment in time that captures the absolute shit storm that has been 2020, “walking in the snow” is that song. It’s release coincided perfectly with the protests for George Floyd which were sweeping the nation. Killer Mike’s verse directly references the phrase “I can’t breathe”, the last words of Eric Garner, which also happened to be the last words of Floyd as well. The fact that this verse was reportedly written in November 2019 perpetually underscores the importance of the content and perfectly represents how persistent this problem is. “walking in the snow” is a true encapsulation of both a defining moment in time and an ever-persisting issue.
But he doesn’t just stop at the racial injustice. Mike goes on an absolute rant about the American education system; how it’s not designed to teach people, but to discriminate against poor populations, limiting their legitimate opportunities, and therefore disproportionately leading them into a criminal lifestyle. He calls out the media as fear-mongers, and the apathy of the American public in the face of indecency. Fortunately for Mike, by the time we finally had the chance to hear this masterpiece, we were already on our feet, using this album as a war cry to mobilize against a tyrannical government that militarized against its own citizens simply for asking that we recognize systemic racism and demanding change. Killer Mike has the best verse of the year, no doubt in my mind.
The only drawback is that Mike’s verse is so fucking good that it completely overshadows El-P’s, which is also amazing. A menacing guitar riff and haunting synths kick the track off into a bouncy groove, where El-P unleashes a flurry of internal rhymes that does not relent for about half his verse. Even adding layers of social commentary within the densely packed bars, El refuses to quit and continues on his political tirade; criticizing ICE’s detainment center practices and the “pseudo-Christians” who support them, with a bar that now lives in my head:
Pseudo-Christians, y’all indifferent, kids in prison ain’t a sin? Shit
if even one scrap of what Jesus taught connected you’d feel different
what a disingenuous way to piss away existence, I don’t get it
I’d say you lost your goddamn minds if y’all possessed one to begin with
The combination of two of the best verses spit by any rapper(s) this year and production help from El-P and long time RTJ collaborator Little Shalimar, create a bouncy, aggressive, deeply truthful banger. “walking in the snow” not only encapsulates the crux of 2020 with lyrics that will become more powerful as they age, but will also forever be associated with the Black Lives Matter movement and the determination to expose continuing racial and societal injustices.
The sonic palette of RTJ4 holds an extremely unique place in El-P’s discography. Jamie is the definition of a self-made 90’s hip-hop legend. This is the dude who put New York underground hip-hop on the map with Company Flow, and he did it with his unique flavor of dark, noisy, dense, boom-bap. Whether he was doing it with the help of Rawkus, or completely independently during his Definitive Jux run, El-P has never made music with the intention of becoming famous. Funcrusher Plus, Fantastic Damage,I’ll Sleep When You’re Dead, and Cancer 4 Cure are all highly revered as industrial, technical, abrasive, and completely unsuitable for the radio or a party. The fact that three songs on RTJ4 could easily be heard on the radio, at a party, or in a TV series credits scene is frankly, astounding. In a 2002 interview/documentary on El-P’s budding record label Def Jux, he stated that his friend bet him $500 that he could not make a beat that was “happy”. At the time of the interview, El-P said that he had not won that bet yet. While I might not qualify the beats on RTJ4 as “happy”, if you showed El-P the beat for “JU$T” in 2002, I believe he might have won that bet.
Pharell opens “JU$T” with the pre-chorus, spitting varied examples of how we’re all slaves to our current system throughout the track, over echoing snares and bouncy 808s before bright synth chords and up-tempo hi-hats burst in while Killer Mike delivers the chorus, pointing to the fact that the majority of the people featured on American currency owned slaves at one point in their lives. Mike’s verse touches on the fact that he has committed crimes to get where they are today. Mike is publicly open about his past as a drug dealer. So why is he a criminal, but Benjamin Franklin isn’t? These are the people who built our country, and they built it on the backs of slaves. He illustrates this theme with a more recent examples:
You believe corporations runnin marijuana? Ooh (how that happen?)
and your country gettin ran by a casino owner (ooh)
pedophiles sponsor all these fuckin’ racist bastards (they do)
When corporations are able to sell cannabis legally, but the government continually incarcerates people who trap, our president is a notoriously fraudulent businessman, and the people who helped put him in power run a pedophile ring, yet none of them face consequences and are allowed to continue to profit and remain in power while people suffer; well, we might be closer to slaves than previously imagined.
Rage Against The Machine frontman Zach de la Rocha also makes his mandatory feature appearance at the end of “JU$T”. As the only artist to feature on three Run The Jewels albums, Zach is essentially an unofficial member of the group at this point. His fiery verse is spit with the same “Rage” energy that set him apart in the mid-90’s, ending the track questioning his place in a capitalist society as a recipe for his inevitable demise, since his “breath”, or art, as his weapon to express himself is still being exploited for other’s profit.
Continuing with RTJ4’s heavily synthetic sonic palette, “never look back” features wavering synth leads resting above the slow-jams snappy snares and thumping bass, while a haunting voice echoes in the background. This unsettling aura provides additional gravity for Jamie and Mike to continue self-reflecting on defining moments in their childhood, and as well as how far they’ve come from those moments. Mike and El are both self-made men, and while they have a certain fondness for those gritty moments that defined them, moving forward in life is undoubtedly more important.
Skeletal drums reminiscent of a slowly pounding heart opens “pulling the pin”, before rhythmic hi-hats and textured, watery synths fluttering in the upper register resting above a bouncy synth lead, and punchy 808s, burst in. The track digs itself into a slower, marching groove and shows the duo figuratively doing exactly what the title implies. Painting a portrait of a society that has turned on itself, Mike and El are ready to pull the pin and start over.
The duo both detail their despise for the ruling class, pointing out multiple examples of how the elite have designed our society to keep poor people in their class. Simultaneously recognizing their own hypocrisy for profiting in a system that inherently discriminates; Mike reflects on his own success, knowing that living the lifestyle he enjoys is one built on oppression, and expresses the guilt that has caused him. El-P opens with a brutal metaphor for police, implying that they’re the root cause of the “wretched state of danger” our society exists within, and that the only effective corrective action is to numb yourself with drugs. Despite his advice, Jamie knows this is not a permanent solution, but one that causes more self-inflicted wounds.
The final piece of the puzzle that is RTJ4, “a few words for the firing squad” begins to close the album with ever crescending strings, and loud, thunderous drums which never seem to resolve, continuing throughout their verses. While the drums that lead to nowhere can be sonically unpleasant, the unresolved melodies are intentionally representative of their current mindsets. Their verses are reflective and grim, but simultaneously optimistic and envisions a world where tragedy is a less common occurrence.
El is grateful for what he has now but recognizes his entire life has been skewed by traumas, so out of place feels normal for him. He reflects on his current success, noting that the worst people tend to end up with the most, which makes becoming “rich” something not as desirable as it once was.
Mike opens up about the death of his mother who died while he was on an airplane, admitting his struggles to not cope with his trauma with opioids. However, his wife provides him the most important reason to stay clean “but my queen/say she need a king/not another junkie rapper fiend” while a heartbreaking saxophone solo highlights the gravity of his lyrics.
The track ends with what sounds the like wrap-up voiceover to a TV show, a conceptually satisfying ending, as the opening track “yankee and brave (ep.4)” began with El-P stating:
”This week, on Yankee and The Brave”
This voiceover paints the duo as brothers on the run from the law and crooked cops, and while this does close this “episode” out as intended, the critic in me is bothered by the slightly kitschy outro to such a spectacular album. The voices singing over and over, “Brave, brave, braaaaaave, Yankee and the Brave” would be, simply put, better left on the cutting room floor. The ending of this track alone is what knocks my score of this album down a few points. Despite its stellar lyrical content, with drums that never seem to reach that “holy shit!” moment, and the easily skippable outro, it’s upsetting to me that an album this great ends on such a low note.
Overview
RTJ4 is by far my favorite album of the year. El-P’s cutting edge approach to their sound, blended with lyrical content that continues to be more relevant by the day, the duo have come together with what is objectively their most accessible album to date. RTJ4 is the natural evolution of sound and subject matter for the duo; taking the foundation set by Run The Jewels 3 and evolving it into a more concise, more accessible, and more conceptual album. While I still personally prefer the “fuck the world” intensity and experimental nature of Run The Jewels 2, RTJ4 opens themselves up to a whole new world of exposure, and when you’re as talented as these two, you know they’re going to capitalize on it. RTJ is currently at their apex, and they’ve created an album that will make many new life-long fans going forward.
9.2/10
Discussion Points
  • How does this compare to other RTJ releases? How about in comparison to the member’s solo works?
  • Does the overwhelmingly positive critical reception of this album surprise you?
  • How will this be looked back on in 5 years?
  • What are your favorite lyrics?
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THE TIMES (Full Article) - Jordan Peterson on his depression, drug dependency and Russian rehab hell

THE TIMES (Full Article) - Jordan Peterson on his depression, drug dependency and Russian rehab hell
INTERVIEW

Jordan Peterson on his depression, drug dependency and Russian rehab hell

The superstar psychologist, scourge of snowflakes, and his daughter, Mikhaila, explain how he unravelled — and their bizarre journey to find a cure

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📷 Jordan Peterson
SHALAN AND PAUL FOR THE SUNDAY TIMES MAGAZINE
Interview by Decca Aitkenhead
Saturday January 30 2021, 6.00pm GMT, The Sunday Times
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I thought this was going to be a normal interview with Jordan Peterson. After speaking with him at length, and with his daughter for even longer, I no longer have any idea what it is. I don’t know if this is a story about drug dependency, or doctors, or Peterson family dynamics — or a parable about toxic masculinity. Whatever else it is, it’s very strange.
Peterson, a clinical psychologist, is a conservative superstar of the culture wars. Born and raised in Alberta by a librarian and a teacher, he spent the first three decades of his career in relative academic obscurity, churning out papers and maintaining a small clinical practice. All that changed in 2016 when he challenged, on free-speech grounds, a new Canadian law he argued would legally compel him to use transgender people’s preferred pronouns. Practically overnight the Toronto professor became a YouTube sensation, posting videos and lectures attacking identity politics and political correctness, and dispensing bracing advice about how to be a real man. His 2018 self-help bestseller, 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, has made him arguably the world’s most famous — and certainly its most controversial — public intellectual.
For three tumultuous years wherever Peterson went uproar and adoration followed. His explosive confrontation with Cathy Newman on Channel 4 News in 2018 resulted in the network calling in security experts after some of his supporters posted abuse and threats online. To the millions of young men who idolise him, the erudite, unflappable 58-year-old is a kind of fantasy father figure. Life is tough, he warns them; they need to stop whining, tidy their room, stand up straight and deal with it. He accuses the “neo-Marxist radical left” of trying to “feminise” men, and defends traditional masculine dominance. According to Peterson men represent “order”. To his critics he represents the respectable face of reactionary misogyny, and a dangerous gateway drug to online alt-right radicalisation.
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📷 Jordan Peterson and his daughter, Mikhaila - SHALAN & PAUL FOR THE SUNDAY TIMES MAGAZINE
If his rise to fame was dramatic, what has happened since he disappeared from public view 18 months ago sounds fantastical — in his daughter’s words it is “like a horror movie”. A movie in which her father gets hooked on benzodiazepines, becomes suicidal, is hospitalised for his own safety and then diagnosed with schizophrenia. Against his doctors’ advice she flies him to Russia to be placed in an induced coma. He emerges delirious, unable to walk, and ricochets from one rehab centre to another, ending up in a Serbian clinic where he contracts Covid-19. Back home in Canada at last, from where he speaks to me earlier this month, he breaks down in floods of tears and has to leave the room. When I ask if he feels angry with himself for taking benzodiazepines, his daughter jumps in, arms waving — “Hold on, hold on!” — and tries to bring the interview to a close.
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📷 Russian roulette: Jordan and Mikhaila in Moscow, where he tried an unorthodox form of drugs detox@MIKHAILAPETERSON / INSTAGRAM
If this was a movie, its director would unquestionably be the 28-year-old Mikhaila Peterson, CEO of her father’s company. She and her Russian husband appear to have assumed full charge of his affairs, so before I am allowed to speak to him I must first talk to her. Unrecognisable from the ordinary-looking brunette from photos just a few years ago, Mikhaila today is a glossy, pouting Barbie blonde, and talks with the zealous, spiky conviction of a President Trump press spokeswoman.
According to her website she has suffered from juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, an autoimmune disorder, since early childhood, which necessitated a hip and ankle replacement at 17. Other symptoms — chronic fatigue, depression, OCD, nose bleeds, restless legs, brain fog, itchy skin, the list goes on — forced her to drop out of university, “and it finally occurred to me that whatever was happening was likely going to end in my death, and rather soon. After almost 20 years, the medical community still had no answers for me.” So she decided to cure herself.
In 2015 Mikhaila began to experiment with food elimination. Starting with gluten, she removed one food group after another from her diet, until for the past three years she has eaten literally nothing but red meat — almost exclusively beef — and salt. This has, she claims, cured everything. She now makes podcasts and blogs about her “lion diet”.
Needless to say the medical profession does not endorse this diet. Nevertheless, in 2018 her father adopted it and within months declared it had cured his depression, anxiety, psoriasis, snoring, gingivitis, gastric reflux, even the floaters in his right eye. He stopped taking the SSRI antidepressants that he had been on for 14 years. He was, he proclaimed, “intellectually at my best”.
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📷 Delivering a lecture in Ljubljana, Slovenia, on his 12 Rules for Life book tour in 2018 REX
Like every medical autodidact I’ve ever met, Mikhaila rattles off pharmacological jargon at 100 miles an hour, sweeping from one outlandish tale to another with breathless melodrama that becomes increasingly exhausting to follow. She wants to give me the “nitty-gritty nasty details” of the past 18 months herself, “because Dad is still not fully recovered, and he’s still extremely prone to anxiety, so any recounting of the story knocks him out for a couple of days”. After 80 minutes on Zoom, the one thing of which I’m certain is that, were I as close to death as she assures me her father repeatedly was, this is not the person I would entrust with saving my life.
The problems all began, according to Mikhaila, in October 2016. By then she, her husband and her father were consuming only meat and greens — the full lion diet would come later — and ate a stew that contained apple cider, to which all three had a violent “sodium metabisulphite response. It was really awful — but it hit him hardest. He couldn’t stand up without blacking out. He had this impending sense of doom. He wasn’t sleeping.” Peterson himself has said he didn’t sleep for 25 days, a claim that has been widely disputed, given that the longest period of sleeplessness recorded is 11 days. Mikhaila brushes this away impatiently. “He was in really bad shape, right.”
Peterson had plenty of reasons to be unsettled. His book 12 Rules would be coming out a year later; his job at the University of Toronto was in jeopardy due to the transgender pronoun controversy. “So that was incredibly stressful,” Mikhaila agrees. “And then just going from not being known to being known was stressful. But our entire family agrees, the main problem here was this weird health thing.” They consulted doctors, “who didn’t really know what was going on”, until the family GP prescribed “a really low dose of benzodiazepine”, the family of sedative drugs that includes Valium. It seemed to help. “And we were, like, OK, whatever.”
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📷 Peterson’s wife, Tammy, was diagnosed with a rare form of kidney cancer in early 2019DANIEL HAMBURY / STELLA PICTURES
By early 2019 Peterson was a household name, his book a global bestseller, when disaster struck. His wife of 30 years, Tammy, was diagnosed with kidney cancer. “We did a whole bunch of research and it was this extremely rare cancer that is extremely deadly.” Tammy suffered all kinds of surgical complications, and Peterson spent months at her hospital bedside, terrified she would die. That summer his doctor raised his benzodiazepine dose, but instead of soothing him it seemed only to make matters worse. “Dad started to get super-weird. It manifested as extreme anxiety, and suicidality.”
On another psychiatrist’s advice he quit the drug and started taking ketamine, but cold turkey sent him into benzodiazepine withdrawal. Another psychiatrist, a family friend, told him to resume the benzodiazepine and check into a rehab clinic to help wean him back off it slowly. After six weeks in rehab in Connecticut he was in a worse state than ever, still on the benzodiazepine plus now additional drugs, unable to stop pacing or writhing with agitation. Frightened he would kill himself, Peterson transferred to a public hospital in Toronto in November, where he was diagnosed with schizophrenia.
The hospital wanted to treat him with electroconvulsive therapy, but Mikhaila and her family were having none of it. “It’s not like we’re uneducated in these things, right?” she says. “We kept telling them, no, the problem was his medication. But they wouldn’t listen to us. So we started calling rehab clinics around the world. We rang 57 of them. And this one place in Russia was, like, ‘Yeah, we do detox.’ So we thought, what do we do? It’s got to be dangerous because no one else will do it. But my family agreed, let’s give it a shot.”
The Toronto doctors “were not OK with it. We had to sign papers taking responsibility for whatever happened. And they were annoyed about it enough that they wouldn’t give us his discharge papers. Which is not even legal, right? It was a complete mess.”
In January last year, with the help of her husband, a nurse and a security guard, Mikhaila put Peterson on a private plane to Moscow. The clinic there was more familiar with detoxing patients from opiates than benzodiazepines; they took one look at Peterson and said he’d been deliberately poisoned. “And I was, like, no, it’s the meds!” To complicate matters further, the clinic intubated him for undiagnosed pneumonia. Did she feel her father was in safe hands? “Well, my husband was translating everything, which was terrifying. But the clinic looked really modern. It didn’t look sketchy.”
The medics administered propofol, the drug that killed Michael Jackson, to induce an eight-day coma, during which they “did something called plasmapheresis, which takes your blood and cleans it. Benzodiazepines have such a long half-life, there’s a theory that maybe some of the withdrawal is because you still have benzodiazepines in you. So the plasmapheresis got rid of everything.”
When Peterson regained consciousness, it became clear that they were not out of the woods yet. “He was catatonic. Really, really bad. And then he was delirious. He thought my husband was his old roommate. Oh, it was horrible.” Did she panic? “Yeah! I lost a whole bunch of hair. I’ve never been that stressed in my entire life. We’d brought Dad here and it was, like, what did the detox do? Was it too hard on his brain? I thought, I’m f***ed if this goes badly. The entire world is going to blame me, because who brings somebody to detox from these medications in Russia? It’s, like, this is really bad.”
Peterson was transferred to a public hospital near Moscow, “for people with severe head trauma, basically. It was like a Soviet-era hospital from a movie. But it was full of really — thank God — really, really, really, really skilled doctors. So I went the next day, and Dad was back!”
The doctors had put him on new drugs; he was alert. By now it was February and Peterson had no memory of anything since mid-December. He had even forgotten how to type. Over eight days he learnt to walk again, and was then transferred to another clinic to convalesce. In late February his family flew him to Florida, rented a house in Palm Beach, hired nurses and thought he would recover. But ten days later all the old symptoms came back. Unable to stop moving, in pain, Peterson was suicidal again. “And I was, like, what is going on?”
Mikhaila contacted a clinic in Serbia — “this, like, top-of-the-world private hospital” — and flew her father to Belgrade, where he was diagnosed with akathisia, a condition of restlessness classically linked to benzodiazepine withdrawal. Finally Mikhaila had found doctors who corroborated her own theory. They prescribed further sedatives and antidepressants and an opiate; her father seemed “stoned” but “at least started to relax”. Father and daughter released a podcast, updating fans on his recovery. And then Serbia went into lockdown, so she moved into her father’s clinic with her husband, their nanny and three-year-old daughter — and all five of them promptly contracted Covid.
By now my head is spinning. The blizzard of obscure pharmaceutical terminology keeps on coming, as Mikhaila reels off the names of more antibiotics and antidepressants and antipsychotics prescribed to her father, recounting her objections to this one and that one until it all becomes a blur.
The long and the short of it is that late last year Peterson flew home to Canada. His akathisia — the intense agitation and restlessness that makes him suicidal — has improved significantly but not disappeared. No one can understand why it still plagues him. He still isn’t free of meds. Having gone through several more doctors in Toronto, Mikhaila is currently corresponding online with “thousands” of akathisia sufferers, who are “telling me what worked for them”.
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📷 Christmas Day, 2020, in Toronto. Clockwise from left: Jordan, Mikhaila and husband Andrey, Julian (Jordan’s son) with son Elliott and wife Jillian, Tammy with granddaughter Scarlett ---- ELLIANA ALLON
Has she ever, I wonder, felt perceived by the medical profession as the problem? “Completely, yes. Hundred per cent. I’ve been problematic for a while.” She starts to laugh. “I’m pretty pushy when I think something is wrong.” She doesn’t have any actual medical training, though, I point out. Doesn’t she worry about the responsibility she has assumed for her father’s treatment? “But because of my experience of being ill, I’ve done a lot of research. There’s this trust people have of doctors that I don’t have. Because doctors are just people, right?”
This opinion is not uncommon in North America, where surprising numbers regard YouTube as a viable substitute for medical school. Whatever your opinion of Peterson, however, his scrupulous deference to scientific data is indisputable. His public image is defined by scholarly precision; “There’s no evidence for that,” is practically his catchphrase.
I am dying to ask him why he submitted to this medical circus, orchestrated by his daughter against his doctor’s orders, when we speak the following day. But at the end of this long and often bewildering account from his daughter, I still can’t tell if her father will be cogent or incoherent. I don’t know what to expect. And Mikhaila will, of course, be monitoring our conversation.
Peterson is as impeccably groomed, composed and meticulously courteous as ever when he appears on Zoom a day later. He looks gaunt and pale, though, and I’m struck by an overwhelming sense of his vulnerability.
As the professor is famously data-driven, I ask what medical evidence was so compelling that it persuaded him to detox in Moscow. He looks slightly blank. “I don’t remember anything. From December 16 of 2019 to February 5, 2020,” he says, “I don’t remember anything at all.” He reassures me that he did, nonetheless, consent to being treated in Moscow, so again I ask why.
“Well, I went to the best treatment clinic in North America. And all they did was make it worse. So we were out of options. The judgment of my family was that I was likely going to die in Toronto.” Why would he put his life in the hands of his family and not the medical profession? “I had put myself in the hands of the medical profession. And the consequence of that was that I was going to die,” he repeats blankly. “So it wasn’t that [the evidence from Moscow] was compelling. It was that we were out of other options.”
I’m curious about the extent to which his mental health was troubling him in the months and years leading up to the crisis. On his book tour he’d delivered a different lecture each night at 160 cities in 200 days, addressing crowds of many thousands. Feted as a psychological authority in possession of all the answers — busy dispensing advice to fans about their mental health — how worried was he about his own? “Well, I don’t think it’s a mental health issue. I think it’s a physical health issue. I have an autoimmune disorder of some sort, and much depression is autoimmune in nature.”
Now I’m confused all over again. Throughout all his medical ordeals there wasn’t ever a formal diagnosis of an autoimmune disorder, was there? “Yeah, there was,” Mikhaila jumps in. “In Russia and in Serbia. Fibromyalgia.” That isn’t an autoimmune condition, is it? “I mean,” Peterson says vaguely, “these sort of autoimmune conditions aren’t very well understood — and fibromyalgia is a good example of that. It’s terra incognita.”
Then he starts talking instead about post-traumatic stress disorder. “One of the markers for post-traumatic stress disorder is derealisation. Like when the things around you don’t seem real. And I was in a constant state of derealisation from October 2016 till …” — he checks the day’s date with a mirthless chuckle — “January 12th of 2021.”
Being Jordan Peterson, he explains, has involved five years of untold pressure. “I was at the epicentre of this incredible controversy, and there were journalists around me constantly, and students demonstrating. It’s really emotionally hard to be attacked publicly like that. And that happened to me continually for, like, three years.” In 2017, 200 of his colleagues “signed a petition at the University of Toronto to have me removed from my tenured position. And my faculty association forwarded that to the administration without even notifying me.” When he gave a talk at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario, “protesters were banging on the windows. It was like a zombie attack. They arrested a woman who was carrying a garotte, for God’s sake! And I was harassed directly after the demonstration by a small coterie of insane protesters who were in my face for two blocks, three blocks, yelling and screaming.”
Was it frightening? “I guess I’d have to say yes, definitely. I was concerned for my family. I was concerned for my reputation. I was concerned for my occupation. And other things were happening. The Canadian equivalent of the Inland Revenue service was after me, making my life miserable, for something they admitted was a mistake three months later, but they were just torturing me to death. The college of psychologists that I belonged to was after me because one of my clients had put forth a whole sequence of specious allegations. So that was extraordinarily stressful.”
He was — and remains — intensely frustrated that journalists keep casting his work as “fundamentally political”. “I really don’t like upsetting people,” he says. “I’m a clinical psychologist, it’s in my nature to help people. I’m not interested in generating controversy. I’ve been trying to help people [understand] that they need a profound meaning in their life because their lives are difficult.”
His fans’ enthusiasm for his tough-love message quite unravels him. “The response has been continually amazing. I don’t know what to make of it. What should I think of the fact that I have 600 million views on YouTube?” He certainly thinks about it a lot; he references his viewing figures repeatedly, with a kind of awestruck wonder. “So it’s the scale of exposure that’s — well, I mean, it’s not unparalleled, because there is no shortage of famous people, but it’s certainly unparalleled for me! I mean, when all this hit me I was already 55 or something. I’d laboured under relative obscurity. But now I’ve had this incredible view into the suffering of thousands and thousands of people, and I can’t go out without people coming up to me. And they’re usually quite emotional, and I’m …” His voice trembles, then cracks.
“You don’t have conversations like that, that often, outside of the clinical sphere. So part of what’s overwhelming to me is how it’s direct evidence of how little encouragement so many people get.” His face crumples into tears. “They’re starving …” He breaks down. “Sorry,” he sobs, “I haven’t done an interview for a long time.” He gets up to leave and returns a minute later carrying a towel to dry his eyes.
“And things just fell apart insanely with [his wife] Tammy. Every day was life and death and crisis for five months. The doctors said, ‘Well, she’s contracted this cancer that’s so rare there’s virtually no literature on it, and the one-year fatality rate is 100 per cent.’ So endless nights sleeping on the floor in emergency, and continual surgical complications.” He looks shellshocked. “So I took the benzodiazepines.”
Those drugs are notoriously addictive, I point out; he had surely heard enough horror stories about housewives hooked on Valium in the 1960s to be wary? “No, I really didn’t give it a second thought. They were prescribed and I just took them.”
Maybe they really were the cause of all his problems. The more he talks, though, the more I wonder whether toxic masculinity might have been a culprit, too. His family history of depression might tell us something about the price to be paid for his bootstrap philosophy; that when life became excruciatingly stressful, Peterson’s stand up, man up, suck it up mentality didn’t work. At the very point when the most famous public intellectual on the planet was preaching a regime of order and self-discipline, he was privately in chaos. Parallels with Donald Trump come to mind; another unhappy man closed off from his emotions, projecting strong man mythology while hunkered down in a bunker with his family against the world.
Peterson’s critics will undoubtedly point out that he built an entire intellectual philosophy upon the principle that life is all about pain and suffering; that the strong, manly response is to square one’s shoulders and battle through it, not to take drugs to numb the pain. “No, I’ve never said that. Look, if you’re a viable clinician you encourage people to take psychiatric medication when it’s appropriate. What I really encourage in people is to understand that it isn’t useful to allow your suffering to make you resentful. And, believe me, I’ve had plenty of temptation to become resentful about what’s happened to me in the last two years.”
When I watched the podcast he made last June with Mikhaila in Belgrade, I tell him, I thought he looked angry, and wondered who or what he was angry with. “Well, pain will make you angry.” Is any part of Peterson angry with himself for taking benzodiazepines? He hesitates. “I wouldn’t say angry. But it’s not like I failed to see the irony. That was another thing that continues to make it difficult to stomach. You know, should I have known better? Possibly.”
Mikhaila interrupts sharply. “Well …” but he continues. “I mean, I did do my thesis on alcoholism.” She raises her voice and waves her arms. “This is — hold up, hold up! You had a side-effect from a medication. Should you have known better that benzodiazepines can cause akathisia in people who take SSRIs?” “No,” Peterson defers. Enunciating each word, she spells out: “This. Wasn’t. A. Benzodiazepine. Dependency. Problem. This was an akathisia side-effect from psych meds.” Her father nods. “Right. Yes, that’s right.” Mikhaila checks the time. “We have to wrap up.” He glances up. “I’m doing OK, by the way.” “Yeah, yeah, I know. But still.” Is he absolutely sure, I try once more, that what he experienced wasn’t an understandable response to intolerable stress? “There’s no way akathisia is that,” Mikhaila snaps.
Peterson’s wife is making a miraculous recovery from cancer. His greatest source of stress right now is “fear that the akathisia will come back. It’s unbearable. And there’s always this sense that you could stop it, if you just exercised enough willpower. So it’s humiliating as well.” Does it generate a self-punishing voice in his head, accusing him of being weak? “Yes, definitely.” He worries that akathisia must look like weakness to everyone else too. “It’s certainly how it appears. Grotesque, for sure.”
He suffered akathisia for 26 days in November, and five in December — “and those episodes would last five to seven hours.” So far in January he has suffered none, “but I can feel it lurking”. Every morning he takes a 90-minute sauna, scrubs himself in the shower for 20 minutes, walks for between two and four hours, “and then I can begin to have something resembling a productive day”.
One thing that has not changed is his politics. Asked about the storming of the Capitol in Washington, he clicks back into more familiar, self-assured Peterson mode. “I thought that the continual pushing on the radical leftist front would wake up the sleeping right. I saw it coming five years ago. And you can put it at Trump’s feet, but it’s not helpful. I mean, obviously he was the immediate catalyst for the horrible events that enveloped Washington — and perhaps it’ll all die down when Trump disappears. But I doubt it.” Should Trump be impeached? “I think he should be ignored.”
Incredibly, throughout all of this he has managed to write another book — Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life — the sequel to his self-help bestseller. I ask how he feels about the prospect of its publication this spring. “Well, I’m ambivalent about it because I can’t judge the book properly. I didn’t write it under optimal circumstances, to say the least, so I can’t make an adequate judgment of its quality.”
Why didn’t he postpone the book until he was better?
“I can tell you why I did it. How I could do it. It was easy. Because the alternative was worse.” He’d lost a year to Tammy being ill, then a year to his own illness. “If I would have lost the book, I wouldn’t have had anything left.” I tell him I’m amazed he managed it, and he looks pleased.
“If you would have seen me, believe me, it would have been more amazing. When I recorded the audio book in November I was akathisic almost the entire time.” His voice raises and fills with pride. “I would go to the studio virtually convulsing in the car. I was moving just frenetically, and then I’d get upstairs into the studio and force myself to not move for two hours.
“If you would have asked me to lay odds on the probability that I would live to finish the recording, I would have bet you ten to one that I wouldn’t have. But I did the recording. And it was the same with the book. Because not to would have been worse. So, to the degree that I can explain how I was able to manage it, I’m not going to talk about willpower or courage, I’m going to talk about the lesser of two evils.”
Except, of course, that he has ended up framing his story in terms of his willpower and courage.
Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life by Jordan B Peterson is published on March 2 (Allen Lane £25)
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I collect blessed objects

  My collection of blessed objects started as a Christmas gift from my nephew. He gave me a small stuffed tiger named Max. My nephew had overheard that I was having nightmares, and confided that he too had nightmares before he was given Max; now that he was a self-appointed “big boy”, he didn't need Max for protection anymore. I was told to leave Max on the bed next to me and he would guard against all kinds evils all night.
  I took the tiger with no intention to use it at first. But I did anyway, desperate for any kind of hope.
  That tiger gave me better sleep than any drug or therapy ever could.
  I began to believe that things such as Max carried with them a power that adults couldn't understand or measure, items that were blessed in nature. Max began my search for other blessed items.
  My second blessed object was a security blanket with the ability to shield against any boogieman acquired through a mutual friend. I was able to loan it to a home that has its own Youtube channel dedicated to poltergeist activities in the house and cellar, activities that stopped as soon as the blanket was in the home. They refused to give me back the blanket, offering a thousand dollars instead. I knew there was a business to this, and soon, my collection of stuffed animals, blankets and odd items began to grow.
  I found FogDog, a stuffed greyhound with a cold metal nose, sold by the mother who was selling her missing, presumed dead, son's belongings at a swap meet; FogDogs' presence brought too much heartbreak for her. She held up the slender gray stuffed dog and bitterly reminisced.
  “My son used to say that this Dog will find anything for you. He used to whisper what he wanted to find into the dog's ear, and the dog would...pull you towards what you want to find. Well. I asked it to find my son... FogDog didn't work for me. So for $5, maybe it can work for you.” I gave her a twenty dollars, as well as a small fish made from a cut penny on a keychain. I told her that the fish would bring her luck.
  She tracked me down a few weeks later just to say that the fish had worked; her son had safely returned home.
  After adding FogDog to the collection, finding additional items was almost too easy. FogDog's metal snout seemed to pull me to the next object by a vast, unknown intelligence. The only thing I was sure of was the item's ability to guide me to sellers willing to part with once cherished items, items embroidered with powerful abilities lost onto even the original owners. It even pulled me to what would be my shop. In less than six months, I opened for business.
  I purchased small shop to work and live above in the forgotten side of town using everything I had in my life savings. In other words, if this shop didn't survive, neither would I. But I was naively confident; who else was protected more from back luck more than a merchant of blessed objects?
  80% of my collection was stuffed toys. The oldest is a corn-husk doll from 1880, now too old for kid's hands, so she sits above and looks out over the other blessed items, like:
  A dozen separate teddy bears and about six different comforters and blankets. Cartoon characters, imaginary animals and even fruit captured in plush form. A metal cap-gun from the 1950's. A flashlight. An old button light-switch that had two bare wires running out from it. A broken wristwatch from 1916. An odd assortment of items, no two the same, bound by only one commonality:
  They could all protect you from monsters.
  My customers were given an item's full verified history and a 100% money back guarantee if they returned the item undamaged; no one ever returned to exchange an item. They only return to tell me the good fortunes they encountered.
  I was able to make a living from trading these objects, using FogDog as a lie-detector for the few people that had heard that we paid up to $5,000 for common stuffed toys. The dog would pull towards the object if the owner's story were real; it would lay dead in my jacket pocket if the object were a fake and the history was just a made-up story. FogDog helped me keep a good name and a growing number of customers to my unique shop.
  I would have never expected trouble came in the form of one of my ceiling lights.
  A supporting bracket to one of my overhead lights had broken, and the light swung into the side of the head of a woman examining a row of teddy bears. The accident was bad enough to draw blood and knock her to the ground. An ambulance was called, a hospital visit ensued, and a lawsuit was filed. They were relentless. They found that I didn't have the proper insurance to protect against “fixture and accessory faults”. I purchased the building outright and was a sole proprietor- I was fully responsible. Their lawyers even found a building inspector's note warning about the corroded light brackets in the packet of forms I was given when I bought the place- the former owner never mentioned anything about an inspector's note.
  The amount I was responsible for, as well as my lawyer's fees, made my head swim. For the next few weeks, there was a lot of talk of closing town and losing everything.
  As begun look into personal bankruptcy proceedings, I got an invitation to see a six year old named Victor, a child dying of pediatric cancer. He wanted to know if he could receive an item from my collection. I was touched, so I brought a stuffed dolphin that was used at a former kid's hospital that had great success rates.
  The boy was given his own wing of a private hospital hidden between towns. It was apparent his relatives were extraordinary wealthy and seemingly perturbed by my existence there. After signing a pile of NDAs and secrecy agreements, all of which I am breaking now, I was allowed to see the only person there who WANTED to see me: Victor.
  They boy was a near-corpse in upright hospital bed. His skin was the color of freshly pulled roots and it clung too tightly to his small skeletal face and hands. Victor only seemed to come alive as I drew nearer to him. He asked an adult to place a chair next to him for me to sit nearby. The adult did so.
  Victor's eyes were more dark sunken hallows than anything else...yet they still sparkled as he smiled. Victor's eyes were old, as old and as darkly dazzling as obsidian. They made me feel uneasy, like staring into a deep water abyss.
  “Friend. I knew you would come. I apologize for my state; you see before you the very best results of our brightest Oncologists and Pathologists in the American medical field. What you see is a pitiful sight.” The boy was an orator. He spoke with an unnerving calm confidence of an elder. It made me unsure what to think.
  “You are not pitiful...” was all I could think to say. Victor smiled.
  “Your pity would surely be mine if you heard my full story. You would pity what it takes to keep me alive. Not the saline drips and monitors. Not love. It's through the will of objects not of human make. Objects...not unlike what you collect, apparently...keep me alive. Can you help me?”
  I removed the small stuffed dolphin from my backpack. Victor's eyes narrowed upon the dolphin. He inspected it with a hard look of disgust on his face.
  “This is...” He began.
  “...you can keep that, by the way. I, I...I dunno, I hope it helps.”
  Victor looked distant and dejected as he held the gray dolphin.
  “Thank you for the gift,” the boy said with labored gratitude, “but this object holds no power.”
  “...how do you know that?”
  “Because I'm a child.” Victor placed the dolphin on a stainless steel tray next to his bed, respectfully but entirely uninterested in it.
  “I had hoped you had a collection I wasn't aware of. That was foolish. I am sorry I wasted our time. The adults will see you out.”
  I could feel the crushing disappointment coming from the brilliant child. He knew these were not blessed objects. I feared all of of what I had was just junk, junk that I had brought to a dying child thinking it would comfort him. Heartbroken, I left without saying a word.
  I opened my shop the next day feeling certain that it would be the last day I would be in business. I was half-way through packing my merchandise when a heavy-looking SUV with tinted windows pulled to an illegal stop in front of my shop. Two bodyguards held open the door for a boy of around 7 in a suit. I didn't recognize the full flushed face, cheerful smile and bright but shallow eyes of the boy in black slacks and a white dress shirt until he told me that he was Victor.
  “The doctors wanted to keep me for their Nobel prize. But they will never understand what lifted me from Death's doorstep to here...” Victor removed the stuffed dolphin that I brought yesterday. Even I was shocked.
  “Wait, you got this well in ONE day?” The boy's smile was jubilant.
  “I was wrong about your gift; it was indeed blessed. And now that I am here, standing in your collection...I see you have amassed a fine collection, sir. Especially this one...” he picked up one of the teddy bears from the shelf.
  “That's Reggie” I explained, “He-”
  “-talks you in your dreams. I know.” Victor correctly finished my sentence. In my stunned silence, Victor continued. “I also know that you are being sued. The lawyers and judges involved are family, and you are unlikely to see a fair outcome.” Victor put the bear back. “But you have an investor now. One that could make this legal matters disappear, for incorporation. All you need to do is sign your name seven times.” One of the bodyguards opened a briefcase to a stack of forms.
  “What do those forms say exactly?”
  “Incorporation into an LLC. A large cash infusion. And the agreement that the lawsuit disappears.” Victor reached out and took my hand into both of his own, looking up into my eyes as he slowly spoke. “I hold no reservations to your abilities- with that stated, I want to make sure this collection is properly taken care of.” His message, hands and eyes were kind. I signed the paperwork.
  Like Victor promised, the potential plaintiff called me in a desperate, terrified voice the next day. She agreed to drop all charges, she would agree to anything as long as I called “the boy” off. I never knew what she meant or what Victor did, but she was true to her word and dropped the lawsuit.
  Victor also brought in dozens of more items, FogDog verified. Old toys, caps, jackets, mickey-mouse lanterns- Victor was able to purchase the nearby offices around my shop and expand the showroom five fold with blessed objects. Victor wanted to renovate everything to be as dazzling as the new collection before opening. The genius child's logic seemed reasonable to me then. I admired it. That's what made me grab Reggi and keep it with me along with Max- there was a reason Victor called out that one bear by name among all the other items.
  Reggi didn't speak to me in my dreams during my first and only night with it. It shouted.
  “None of us can speak over the other!” The bear's stern voice shouted to me. “If ONE of us COULD, we would have warned you to stay AWAY from the boy! Don't be fooled by him! Look!”
  I was then dreaming of a Victor and the woman who was suing me planning out the sabotage of my lights, planting fake building inspection records and buying the local judges. The entire lawsuit was a setup from Victor to put me in peril. Even the frantic call I received from her was fake.
  I then dreamed of Victor directing the people in his mock hospital wing like a movie set. He dressed in a medical gown as was able to mold his body to the withered shell on command, returning to normal as soon as I left. The dreams were turning into nightmares now.
  There was one final vision, one where Victor was assembling his scattered, hidden “blessed objects” from around the world, objects that protect you from misfortune, like Victor. He brought them all here, all for the purpose of burn-"
  That was when I was ripped from the dream, just in time to see a small, perfectly dark shadow ripping Reggi in two and then throwing the pieces into his own Vantablack silhouette the shape of a 7 year old. I was too terrified to move, even when I smelled acrid smoke belching from below. The shop below was on fire.
  The shadow standing at the foot of my bed wouldn't let me move. The shadow had Victor's voice.
  “Burn along with this filthy horde. They have bothered us for LONG ENOUGH.” The long blue flames slipped through the floorboards my bedroom, the same flames burning my collection below. They began to scorch my legs and back.
  The shadow moved through the smoke towards me. I could feel the cold, endless void within him, and I knew I was powerless to stop it. I would have been taken if not for Max.
  Max was small stuffed animal in reality, but here in this half-dream state, I could see its inner spirit- a raging tiger made of spiraling light with the roaring prusten of vibrating bells. It jumped on the shadow in a raging display of clashing light and piercing darkness, and I was free from the shadows grasp. I opened the window and jumped through the screen, falling out of the now raging inferno.
  The fire department came too late. I looked through the wreckage in the morning, my mind replaying the terrible night before on loop.
  Nothing in my collection survived the strange blue fire. Well, almost nothing.
  Something hit my foot when I was kicking through the ashes of my ruined home and business. It was the metal nose to FogDog and a bit of the connecting fabric. It lead itself to me, and despite missing 90% of its former self, it still seemed to work just as good.
  After a moment of celebration, my mind flashed to revenge.
  “OK, FogDog...Where's Victor?”
  FogDog began to pull my hand downwards.
submitted by IamHowardMoxley to nosleep [link] [comments]

In 1979, Margaret Livesey confessed to the violent killing of her 14 year old son and then said she'd been pressed to confess during interrogation...so if she didn't? Who did?

I came across this case of a possibly innocent woman being imprisoned for murder when watching old episodes of Rough Justice...a British television show popular in the 80s.
Bamber Bridge is a little town just outside of the city of Preston in Lancashire England.
Working class and close-knit, in 1979 it was the sort of community where neighbours think nothing of visiting for a few drinks of an evening, sharing troubles and having a laugh.
The kids all play together and are chaperoned and watched over by everyone's older brother or sister.
So when on 22nd February 1979, 14 year old Alan Livesey was discovered dead in the sitting room of his own home by the 17 year old son of a neighbour who had been sent to check up on him, the community was devastated.
Three days later, in the middle of the investigation, the police arrested Margaret Livesey and she was held and interviewed aggressively for hours. She then confessed to the murder.
She told police that she'd lost her temper...he was a boy who like many in the street, was in and out of minor trouble with the police. He was hard work.
She said
"I saw a little kitchen knife and picked it up. I remember stabbing him a number of times. He fell to the floor and I stabbed him again in the throat."
'I was thinking, 'You bad little sod' all the time and I had completely lost control of myself.' After the confession, She apparently kept apologizing and saying that she hadn't known she'd done it...and that was why it had taken 3 days for her to confess...because she hadn't remembered until during the police interrogation.
Later...she retracted her confession. She said the police had coerced her during a time when she was already deep in the horrors of bereavement and shock.
She was found guilty though and sentenced to life in prison.
The point of this post is to draw attention to the many conflicting witness statements from that evening.
It's a very confusing case...and because I tend to find that sort of thing hard work I wanted to try to show the events here so as to understand them better myself and hear others' opinions.
It might help if I list the major players in the case first.
Mrs Margaret Livesey - the mother of Alan, the murdered boy. Lived at number 41 The Crescent.
Alan Livesey - 14 year old, keen army cadet and general rough diamond. Also lived at number 41 The Crescent.
Susan Warren - neighbour living at number 39 (next door) and on the night in questions was with her partner -
Ronald Mason - partner of Susan Warren, he was present at number 39 that night.
Peter Nightingale - another neighbour but from across the way...not close to their house.
Christine Norris - lived at number 43, the other side of the Livesey house.
Frank Bamber - was Margaret Livesey's friend and she was having an affair with him. They spent the evening together in the local pub that night.
Andrew Mathews and Tommy Rogers - two boys the same age as Alan Livesey - 14 or 15.
Mrs Mathews and Mrs Rogers - the Mothers of the two boys above. They lived at the opposite end of the crescent to the Liveseys - that's important for later.
Leslie Mathews and Tony Rogers - the older sons of Mrs Mathews and Mrs Rogers....about 17 years old.
Here's what happened - and it's worth noting at this point that a number of witnesses changed their statements with one, Peter Nightingale reverting back to his original statement after saying the police had pressured him to change it in the first place.
At about 6.00pm Alan was served dinner by Margaret. His Dad was at work. After dinner, Margaret and Alan went to the local store I can't find out what they bought there...but they returned home. Not before a witness said she'd seen them looking like they'd had an argument whilst at the shops.
At about 8.50, Margaret left Alan home alone and she went to the pub to meet Frank Bamber.
The pub was a 4 minute drive from the Crescent. She walked to the pub but was driven home.
She and Frank were noted by staff to have left the pub at around 10.45. Margaret says she sat with Frank for a short while in the car park of the pub just talking. Then he drove her home and dropped her at the entrance to the Crescent.
She began walking towards number 41. On he way she saw two boys....Andrew Mathews and Tommy Rogers. She knew they should not be running wild outside at this time of night and so she called into the Mathews house to tell Andrew's Mother Mrs Mathews.
There she also found Mrs Rogers, Tommy's Mother. She informed them that their son's were out and lurking around so Mrs Mathews told her 17 year old son Leslie to get his friend, Tony Rogers...the other son of Mrs Rogers and to go out and find the boys and send them home....in the meantime, she invited Margaret to stay and have a drink.
Margaret asked the older boys to look into her house to check that Alan was safely at home as she suspected that if Tommy and Andrew were out and about, Alan might be too.
Leslie and Tony both aged 17 walked to Margaret's house. Leslie told Tony to go round the back quietly so that if the boys were all there, they could not run out the back door.
Then Leslie knocked on the front door and called out Alan's name. There was no response so Leslie and Tony returned and told Margaret this.
She gave Leslie a key and asked him to open the door and look in and see if Alan was ok.
He did this and it was then that he found Alan's dead body.
Alan had been wearing civilian clothing earlier in the night but now he was wearing his Army Cadet uniform, an outfit consisting of camouflage gear and boots.
He was lying face down, his hands bound with a complicated knot which wove under and around a number of times.
Leslie turned him over and found a red sock tied about his throat. He undid it and saw immediately that Alan had been badly stabbed in the throat and also that his face and neck had lots of minor wounds, little cuts and bruises and nicks.
Leslie tried to administer first aid and to breathe life into the boy but blood pumped out of the wound on his neck...he ran back to where the women were and told them what had happened.
Margaret's response seemed natural enough by all accounts. She fell to her knees beside her son's body, called out "Oh Alan, oh Alan!" and tried to close his eyes...she cradled his head on her lap.
The police later spoke to neighbours to attempt to learn more. They also searched very carefully for a weapon in every garden but found nothing. They were looking for a knife at least three inches long and two wide.
They did find a witness though; Peter Nightingale said that at just past ten that evening he was walking home to his house on the Crescent...which was on the opposite side to the Livesey's.
He was walking along the backs of the houses...where all the gardens were. He was planning to hop the fence of the house next door to the Livesey's as he'd come from a direction which made that route faster. Then go through "the ginnel" which is a sort of alleyway at the side of the house...and into the main crescent and across to his own home.
As someone who grew up in a town like this with houses like this, it's worth nothing that this is completely normal. Sometimes, it's much faster to approach a house from the back...depending on where you're coming from. The gardens are all small and usually linked with lanes or alley ways. I wanted to point this out in case people thought the witness was suspicious for entering via the back. In this time, it was normal for people to take short cuts through other people's ginnels.
Peter said that as he hopped the low fence of the house, he heard the sound of a bolt being drawn.
He looked up and to the left, he saw a young man leaving number 41 The Livesey's house and walking down their back garden path.
He said the young man was about 5.10 and had white blonde hair that 'bounced' as he walked at the back.
He head the man's anorak sleeves rustling as he walked. Peter was certain that the time would have been 10.05pm. He knew this because he had been at his friend's house and left just as the 10.00 news began. the walk was 5 minutes.
So we have Peter Nightingale spotting a blonde man leaving the Liveseys at 10,05pm
At this point, two days into the investigation and BEFORE Margaret Livesey had been interrogated or confessed, the police began interviewing Alan's schoolmates and his fellow army cadets. They even asked if anyone who Alan knew 'might have homosexual tendencies" because they felt that the murder was sexual in nature. Though there was no evidence of sexual assault and he was fully dressed, the police felt that the marks on Alan's face and neck indicated some degree of torture...that he had been teased and frightened with the tip of the knife only making small injuries many times before the fatal wound was made.
The police arrested Margaret largely on the basis of Christine Norris and Susan Warren who lived either side of Margaret.
At first, Christine Norris and Susan Warren both said they heard nothing.
Both changed their story though...and within four days of the killing, had spoken to one another and each claimed they'd been mistaken.
Christine told the police that she had been mistaken and she had heard a violent argument between Margaret and Alan at 10.45pm
Susan Warren had originally denied hearing anything but now she confirmed Norris's statement and said she had heard the argument too.
The police still had Peter Nightingale's evidence though...regarding the blonde man...but Peter retracted his statement. He later gave the statement in court though...saying that he had only retracted it because the police pressured him to do so.
The first trial was scrapped AFTER the jury had retired to consider a verdict because one jury member's family member had become badly unwell and they were excused.
This meant a retrial 11 days later. In the meantime, those 11 days saw the local press go to town on the story with many lurid headlines about how Margaret had confessed... which will have affected the second jury consisting of local people.
The trial ended with Margaret being found guilty.
Here's why Margaret could not have done it.
She would not have had time. She would have had to arrive at the crescent and go to kill Alan and THEN go to her friend's home (covered in blood) and enjoy a drink...showing her bandaged foot...drawing attention to her limbs which had NO blood on them.
This was not a large woman...she'd have had to overpower a 14 year old male, tie a complex knot and kill him in less than 10 minutes.
Christine Norris, Susan Warren and Ronald Mason all later said they were mistaken about the noise of the argument...there's a video and it's highly confusing...all three say one thing and then say another.
I will link to the video.
The defence were pretty solid in their statements that Margaret would not have had time to kill Alan.
She arrived at the top of the crescent at 11 and walked straight to the Mathew's house after seeing the lads on the street.
The autopsy report states that the food in Alan's stomach, consumed at 6.00pm was barely digested and they estimated his time of death at 10.00pm or at the latest 10.30pm.
This would fit in with Peter Nightingale's sighting of the blonde man at 10.05.
But with so many witnesses seemingly being ignored or changing their statements, it's not surprising that things are confusing.
Margaret served 9 years before being paroled. She died of cancer in 2001 and her family continue to protest her innocence. The case was being opened again in 2016 but I cannot find anything more about that.
I have tried to look up any murders of young men or attacks of a similar nature in the late 70s and early 80s but cannot....does anyone here know of any? The murder does seem somewhat specific in nature...it has an element of cruelty about it...was it a stranger? Was it a friend of Alan's? Was it Margaret? Who did it?
EDIT I forgot to add this The knife that Margaret said she used was a kitchen one which she used to peel potatoes. When it was examined, there was not one trace of blood on it...the knife had a bit of damage to the part where the blade met the handle and some traces of earth from the potatoes was found there...but no blood. Also the pattern of blood on the floor indicated that Alan was already lying down when he was attacked and that his killer knelt on top of him...there was no spatter or mess anywhere. He was stabbed where he lay and the blood pooled there. I also forgot to mention that a package of cigarettes was found in the house and it was not the brand used by any of the people in the house.
Case Reopened
Episode of Rough Justice on YouTube
submitted by Ieatclowns to UnresolvedMysteries [link] [comments]

Official /r/nba Power Rankings #3 - It might be cold, but teams are getting hot (02.01.2021)

23/30 rankers reporting this week. /NBA's Power Rankings are published every two weeks which is a bit different from most rankings. Other than that we rank the teams the same way as our competition. If write ups are left blank the team rep decided not to submit. We encourage any user to fill in the blanks in the comment section. Rankings were supposed to be completed prior to Today's games.
# Team Δ Record Comment
1 Clippers +1 16-5 Kawhi and PG are the best duo in the league right now. Lou has slowed down a bit, but Batum has really stepped up. Finally, Lue is experimenting a lot with the rotations, so I'm eager to see which rotations end up being the best. Things look good.
2 Lakers -1 15-6 Lakers have been a mixed bag since the last Power Rankings. After a loss to GSW on Jan 18th in which Oubre actually played well, the team rattled off 3 straight wins in the Midwest (MIL, CHI, CLE) as they began their longest road trip of the season. Their momentum was interrupted by two straight losses to PHI (Tobias Gamewinner) and DET (completely stagnant offense with no AD) before a tight victory against BOS. Overall the team has been leaning on Lebron and AD fairly hard as the 6th Men work to find chemistry still. Vogel continues varying minutes and lineups to learn more of how to unlock this team's full potential commenting on Caruso's minutes being stabilized to keep him healthy for the Playoffs while maximizing his impact while he's on the floor. Lakers dropping to 3rd in the conference as UTA and LAC stay strong while PHI remains the eminent power in the East puts the Lakers as 4th in the League's power rankings.
3 Jazz +3 15-5 You might not know it but we are currently witnessing the greatest 3 point shooting season by a team in NBA History. The Utah Jazz set a NBA record for three pointers in a month (making 285 in January), are currently averaging the most threes per game in NBA history (17.0) and shooting 40.0% from beyond the arc. This has been the biggest catalyst for Utah's success in 2020-21 as the team has won 11 of 12 games and currently ranks 2nd in the league by W/L record despite lacking a traditional offensive superstar duo like most of the league's top teams. Mike Conley continues to lead the league in +/-, Jordan Clarkson leads all bench scorers in points per game and with opposition teams scoring 14.5 points per 100 possessions fewer with Rudy Gobert on the court, the Stifle Tower remains the premier defender in the NBA.
4 76ers +1 15-6 Going 6-1 in this last stretch with Embiid playing at an MVP level would certainly be enough to justify the Sixers' ranking this week, but everyone knows what this was all about. The Sixers passed their first true test against the Lakers and, while they may have needed a game winner at the end, they led the game with a relatively comfortable margin almost wire to wire almost every other minute. With Ben Simmons looking much more aggressive, health finally returning to the starting lineup, and Embiid playing at his top level, the Sixers have earned their spot as a title contender. The team may look rough without Embiid (needing to beat a 16 point deficit in the 4th to get their first Embiid-less win), but their title hopes live and die with him anyway.
5 Nets -1 13-9 The Nets offense has been historic in the few games with the Big 3. Unfortunately, the defense has been too - and for all the wrong reasons. The Nets filled out 2 of our roster spots with Norvel Pelle and Iman Shumpert, two defensive minded guys that won't have to offer much offensively. Look for them to use our remaining roster spot during the buyout market on another center.
6 Nuggets +6 12-8 The Nuggets may have read the last rankings, as they took the "trending in the right direction" blurb and rode it to the Moon, finishing January as winners of 6 of their last 7 games. While the impact of Michael Porter Jr. returning from the protocol cannot be understated, the team has played more cohesive basketball recently, and the supporting cast around Nikola Jokic has stepped up to the task and returned to last season's form. The Nuggets have plenty of winnable games on the slate for February, which will be vital for the team to carry momentum into the early playoffs this season in March.
7 Bucks -4 11-8 Things have not looked up for the Bucks since our last rankings, going 2-4 in 6 games. During that stretch opposing teams have shot us out of the gym. In the last 3 games, we gave up more points from 3 than in any 3 game stretch in NBA history. It's hard to say how much of this is due to bad luck, but the scheme certainly isn't helping and boy is it hard to watch.
8 Celtics -1 10-8 Imma be real. I marked tf out while watching the Royal Rumble (typing this about 2 hours after it ended) and jumped when I shouldn't have, and absolutely murdered my head on the ceiling and I'm like a solid 80% sure I gave myself a concussion as I'm feeling nauseous and my head hurts really bad and I've lost my balance a bit. The show must go on though, just like the Celtics must go on after the injury to Marcus Smart. What looked like an absolutely brutal injury on the slowmo replay turned out to be just a calf strain, and he's expected to be out 2-3 weeks. Since the last rankings the Celtics are 2-4, but Tatum is finally back so things are at least somewhat looking up. We might use the TPE on the corpse of JJ Redick too so... Yay? Between now and the next rankings the Celtics play 8 times, with matchups against the Warriors, Kings, Clippers, Suns, Jazz, Raptors, Pistons, and Wizards. Now if you all will excuse me, I think I'm going to go to the hospital.
9 Pacers -- 11-9 The Pacers went an uninspiring 3-5 over the past two weeks, capped off by an abysmal loss to a Joel Embiid-less 76ers team in which they held a 16 point lead with 8 minutes to go. Indiana still has barely played at full strength this season, and they will be waiting a while longer, as T.J. Warren still has not returned from a foot injury. In bittersweet news, Pacers fans will have to wait for Caris LeVert to make his team debut, but thankfully, he is expected make a full recovery after a cancerous mass was removed from his kidney.
10 Suns -2 10-8 Some ups and downs recently but still staying afloat despite suffering various injuries (Booker and Payne) and COVID positive tests (Saric, Jones, Smith). The team's biggest strugles have been in crunchtime, evident as the Suns were leading within 2:15 left in regulation in five their last six losses. They are a good enough team to be 15-3 but have played poorly enough in key moments to deserve their 10-8 record.
11 Trail Blazers -1 10-8 As long as Damian Lillard dons the scarlet and black, Portland will never be a bottom dweller. The six points in 8 seconds he put up against Chicago is likely a top 10 career moment (so far), and helped right the ship in Portland after a rough few games. Helping him along the way has been Gary Trent Jr, who has averaged 21 points on incredible efficiency in the three games he's started for injured CJ McCollum. That said, with all the injuries, not even herioc efforts from Portland's remaining guards will be able to stave off losses for long. If Portland hopes to stay in the playoff pictures they desperately need at least some of their supporting cast to stay healthy - particularly Robert Covington and Derrick Jones Jr - until Nurkic and McCollum can return.
12 Grizzlies +3 8-6 Ja has returned earlier than expected, and we have been winning more than our share of games. Young sharpshooter Desmond Bane is looking like another steal for the Grizzlies late in the draft.
13 Warriors +1 11-9 Since last rankings Warriors sported a top 5 defense. They are now 11th overall in DRating. Wiseman has had a couple of great games despite being benched in favor of Looney in the starting line up. Steph is at 40% from 3 and is sitting 4th quarters. Warriors have had a light schedule these past couple weeks and go on a road trip facing mini series against the Mavs and Spurs after their home game against the Celtics tomorrow.
14 Spurs -1 11-9 It's been a bit of an up-and-down stretch for the Spurs the last two weeks, with some huge wins (namely over Portland, Denver and Boston) coupled with some frustrating losses (Golden State and Memphis). However, despite the frustrating parts, the Spurs have looked more consistent and cohesive as an overall roster this season than at really any point last season (maybe The Bubble notwithstanding), and we've done that while getting only two games from arguably our Bubble MVP in Derrick White, who returned against Memphis over the weekend. The Spurs in particular have been incredibly adept at taking care of the ball (1st in the league at only 11 TO/G) and currently hold the best Assist:TO ratio in league history, according to the Spurs' broadcast over the weekend—quite an impressive achievement for a young team indeed! With White returning, expect the Spurs to continue to be a surprising annoyance to the top teams in the league, as Dejounte Murray continues to take the next step in his evolution as a player, DeMar continues to "overperform" as the league's 82nd best player, and with Keldon Johnson making waves with his hyper-aggressive, energetic style of play. Looking ahead, the Spurs have a chance for revenge tonight against Memphis, along with games against Minnesota, Houston, a B2B against Golden State, and a game against Atlanta over the next two weeks.
15 Hawks +6 10-9
16 Rockets +9 9-9 Having to navigate through injuries, sickness, and trades has made Silas's job a very difficult one in his rookie season as a head coach. Now that he finally has a handle on the lineup, he is doing a fantastic job. The WOW trio has gelled very well together, the defense is locked in, and a couple of undrafted rookies in Tate and Jones are exceeding all expectations. This combination of factors has propelled the Rockets to a 5W streak. Who knows? Maybe Oladipo will stay after all.
17 Mavericks -6 8-12 To put it lightly, it's been a rough first month+ of the season. Porzingis is still battling staying healthy, the team has been hit by Covid, which has made it hard to build chemistry, and the team is not hitting 3s. The Mavs rank dead last in the league in 3P%, yet are a team that lives and dies by the 3. Luckily for them, their 3 point defense has been efficient, and should continue to stay in the top 10 with their best defenders returning. As the schedule eases up, the next two weeks will be a crucial test for the Mavs.
18 Hornets +2 9-11 It’s been an up and down season for the Hornets so far, alternating winning and losing streaks and attempting to stay afloat in East playoff (or at least play-in) contention. Gordon Hayward has shown he’s a viable #1 option; he can easily average 20+ PPG all season as long as he’s healthy. Back to back wins against the Pacers and Bucks (the second including an excellent performance from rookie LaMelo Ball) show that the Hornets are better than NBA media said we’d be, and that feels good. Also, LaMelo Ball and Miles Bridges, a.k.a. Air BnB, is a combination to watch for in the future, which is looking brighter for Charlotte every day!
20 Cavaliers -1 9-11 Our already bad offense has trailed off over the last few games, leading to us losing 4 of 5. The shots just aren’t falling, no matter where they’re coming from. This team desperately needs the return of Kevin Love for his offensive output and space creation. Defenses are swarming Sexland, leading to contested shots, or shots having to come late in the clock from Okoro, Nance, or Drummond. Opponents will keep doing exactly that until we figure out how to punish.
20 Raptors +3 8-12 More disappointing weeks from the raptors. Our only wins against good teams seem to be coming from teams plagued by injuries or Covid (Dallas/Miami), with one nice win coming against Indiana. Our 4th quarter play continues to struggle, our defence is a shell of its former self, and our overall effort on the court seems abysmal. Thankfully there’s been some bright spots in Yuta Watanabe and Stanley Johnson, but the team still appears unclear of its direction. Too good to tank, and not good enough to win.
21 Knicks +2 9-12 "Quickness is the essence of war" -Sun Tzu
22 Heat -5 7-12 Things haven't gone much better since the last time we checked in. We finally ended our losing skid and we've got Jimmy Butler back, so things should start trending up. The majority of our losses during our winless streak were with a point difference of 10 or less points, but we also got shellacked by teams that I felt were on a similar level to ourselves. We're entering a comparitively easy stretch of opponents (record wise), but it's also against teams that have historically done well against us. We will also enter this stretch POTENTIALLY missing Tyler Herro after he had close contact with his housemate who's got COVID. Thankfully, the conference is still fairly close to each other so all we need is a nice stretch of games and we could see ourselves back in the middle of the hunt. It hurts to possibly lose Tyler again right after he came back but that's the unfortunate reality of the past year or so. :gem: :raised_hands:
23 Thunder +1 8-10 For the first time since before Paul George injured his shoulder, we can say that Oklahoma City's roster is now performing about as well as expected. A DORT-led victory over rival Portland mere days after the announcement of a Lillard shoe commemorating that shot brought smiles and memes of schadenfreude to the fanbase despite several brutally uncompetitive losses to high-end teams like Brooklyn and LAC. Another bright spot has been Aleksej Pokusevski's improvement to possibly looking like an NBA player after all. Otherwise, the most exciting moment for Thunder fans lately has been watching old hero Russell Westbrook put on shows like old times in Washington this week.
24 Kings +3 8-11 Now a over a month into the season the Kings remain within striking distance of a potential play-in seed. Given the feel around the team it would be quite fitting to end the playoff drought on a cinderella play-in run. The Kings have won three of their last four games, beating the Eastern Conference Powerhouse New York Knicks and only losing to the defending Eastern Conference Champions. This is in part thanks to Buddy Hield seeming to put his early shooting slump behind him and though Tyrese Haliburton has cooled off slightly, he's continued providing quality minutes off the bench.
26 Bulls -- 7-11 Look. I've seen a lot of "LaVine must be mad/wants out/can't carry" comments lately from non-Bulls-fans. I understand that most Bulls games aren't drawing tons of viewers, but as one of them I can promise yall that's not what's happening here. The Bulls are playing almost to the level we wanted them to be at, and it's not a LaVine carry job, though he is clearly our best player and an All-Star. The major errors on this team are mental, and our tough schedule so far is showing the effects of youth on a team's ability to close out. Unfortunately, starting C Wendell Carter Jr. will miss about 4 weeks with a quad injury, so although our schedule is set to get easier for now, the team is now counting on Thaddeus Young, Daniel Gafford, and god forbid Cristiano Felicio to pick up most of the center minutes.
26 Pelicans -8 7-11 We kinda suck right now. The offense has started to get figured out, but in the meantime the defense has suffered a total and utter collapse. Pushing the pace has allowed Lonzo and others to come alive on the offensive end. But at the same time has sent them back into the same mindset as previous seasons, where the defensive end requires no effort and the team just tried to out score their opponents.
27 Magic -11 8-13 Man, injuries suck and we suck. BIG TIME. At least Vuc has All-Star potential and Cole got this insane game winner.
28 Pistons +2 5-15
29 Wizards -1 4-12 Beating the Nets in probably the game of the year yesterday almost makes the three preceding blowout losses to the likes of New Orleans, John Wall, and Atlanta worth it.
30 TWolves -1 5-14 The Wolves have not been very good without Karl-Anthony Towns but a bright spot for the team over the last 5 games has been Anthony Edwards who has been averaging 19 ppg over the last 5 games and showing signs that the NBA game is slowing down for him.
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live better with cancer returns video

Episode 293: Given Months To Live After Brain Cancer ... Gifted with Cancer - Ali Banat with Mohamed Hoblos - YouTube Vitamin C for cancer? ‘Miracle man’ Anton Kuraia's highly ... Can we eat to starve cancer? - William Li - YouTube My Chemical Romance - Cancer [Live In Mexico] - YouTube Live Like You Were Dying - Tim McGraw with lyrics - YouTube Sheryl Crow & Eric Clapton - Callux's Battle with Cancer - YouTube Ronaldo's mum 'fighting for her life' as breast cancer returns My Chemical Romance - [Cancer] (Lyrics) - YouTube

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Episode 293: Given Months To Live After Brain Cancer ...

When told by doctors that he had just months to live following the detection of brain cancer for the third time, Scott Burgess from the UK was running out of... Cancer [Live In Mexico] if anyone has any requests just ask (make them about my chemical romance) ill happily do song requests. Ali Banat was diagnosed with Cancer and doctors have given him only 7 months to live. Despite his circumstances, he considers this a gift from Allah. He shar... View full lesson: http://ed.ted.com/lessons/can-we-eat-to-starve-cancer-william-liWilliam Li presents a new way to think about treating cancer and other dise... A hard hitting discussion this week on Happy Hour as YouTuber Callux opens up about his battle with cancer. From his leukemia diagnosis to his chemotherapy C... New Zealand research reveals science may back his belief. "Live Like You Were Dying" by Tim McGraw from the album "Live Like You Were Dying"If you like this check out these:"Defying Gravity" Glee Version (Kurt's sol... LIKE US on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sherylovesiteBridgeview, Illinois. Lyrics To 'Cancer' By 'My Chemical Romance!' Cristiano Ronaldo’s mother, Dolores Aveiro, has revealed that she is ‘fighting for her life’ after a new breast cancer diagnosis, Aveiro was first diagnosed ...

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